Generation XM8 Initial reports favor Heckler & Koch,

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Harry Tuttle

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Generation XM8
Initial reports favor Heckler & Koch, which is building local plant for rifle assembly
BY TONY ADAMS
Staff Writer
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/9735095.htm
XM8


George Thorogood's growling rock classic, "Bad to the Bone," set the mood Wednesday as two squads of soldiers leaped out of their Stryker armored vehicles at Fort Benning's Redcloud Range.

As the music from the loudspeakers faded away, the 29th Infantry Regiment troops hit the ground in a prone position and proceeded to blast away at green targets on a hillside about 100 yards away.

Dirt kicked up as one nine-man squad did their damage using the Colt M4 Carbine rifle that currently is the weapon of choice for soldiers on the battlefield. Then came the second squad brandishing the next-generation XM8 assault rifle, which looks to make the M-16 assault rifle immediately obsolete and eventually overcome the M4's popularity.

Afterward, the camouflaged warriors cast their vote. The XM8 appeared to be a heavy favorite.

"It blows the M4 out of the water," said Spc. Ian Mason, 20, from Grand Haven, Mich. "It's lightweight. It's easier to use. We haven't had a single malfunction on any of the weapons."

For Lt. Col. Mike Haerr, 40, an Illinois National Guardsman attending the annual Infantry Conference, the weapon would have extreme value on a battlefield or the mean streets of Baghdad.

"It's a streamlined system that's a lot more compact," he said. "So for soldiers mounted in a vehicle system or sitting in a front seat of a Humvee, it's a lot more maneuverable. You can get it out a window a lot quicker if it's not already out. I think that's what's going to make this weapon a little more popular with soldiers."

German manufacturer

Those votes of confidence are enough to put a smile on the face of Peter Simon, president of Sterling, Va.-based Heckler & Koch Defense Inc. H&K is the German gun manufacturer developing the XM8 for the military, with hopes of landing a contract bonanza to produce several million copies of the weapon. A $1 billion prize isn't out of the question, the company has said.

But first, a second round of testing in the desert, jungles and arctic must be completed. That will take until December. It will be followed by more evaluations with the possibility of a decision coming in February, Simon said. That could lead to an initial contract for 8,000 to 10,000 of the assault rifles -- enough to fill two brigade combat teams -- by December 2005.

Though H&K is constructing a 102,000-square-foot plant in Muscogee Technology Park, Simon said the XM8 won't necessarily be manufactured in Columbus from the start. Instead, it appears, the weapon's parts would be made in Germany, shipped to Columbus for assembly, then distributed to the military from a center being relocated here from Virginia.

The number of jobs locally -- originally pegged at about 200 -- also won't be created quite as fast as originally anticipated.

"I think the initial start will probably result in about 50 positions, and then we grow that as we grow the business," said Simon, downplaying expectations until the Department of Defense awards a major contract.

"All I'm trying to do is not count my chickens before they're hatched," he said. "We expect that we will (bid) this weapon system and production at several points throughout the life cycle of the weapon system."

Col. Michael Smith, program manager for the XM8 at Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey, said H&K already has earned $30 million developing and testing the XM8. And he expects the company eventually will land the big prize and begin feeding the military a steady supply of the rifles.

"In the vast majority of cases, that is the same contractor, but it has changed in the past," Smith said.

Asked why the developing company has the edge in winning the production contract, the colonel responded: "He's got it locked. He understands exactly how to build it. No one's ever going to build it better than he can."
 
Hmmm, interesting. Peopel keep saying that it's more compact and all, but for some reason it looks chunkier to me. I guess looks are deceiving.
 
I handled one extensively at the Infantry Conference but got no range time. The design looks promising. I spoke with both the Army's project manager and the H&K representative at length about the weapon system. I also talked with the Small Arms ammunition guru from the Directorate of Combat Development. The XM-8 definitely has promise. However, it does have a couple of issues:

1. The the bolt catch is inside the trigger guard. When pointed out to the Army program manager, I was informed that the idea this was unsafe was "my opinion." :uhoh: H&K agreed it was unwise but explained it was giving the Army what it specified. I can't fault them for that. By the way, the new grenade laucher has the same set-up. :banghead:

2. I am not sold on the magazine release. It has a paddle style magazine release with two levers on either side of the front of the trigger guard. The two levers are too hard to manipulate with you firing hand requiring two hands to drop the magazine vs. one on an M-4.

3. The magazines all hook together. Evidently this is because some no combat arms units were taping skoal cans in-between the magazines. Fielding the XM-8 will require new magazine pouches each holding two clipped together magazines. Presumably there will be two on the gun. No word if the basic load will go to 8 magazines (no enough real estate on you gear for 3 pouches in my opinion) or 6 (losing 30-rounds). The Army representatives could no seem to fathom why someone would only want to put one magazine on their gun. They were also unable to provide an explanation as to where is was supposed to put my expended, clipped together magazines.

4. The iron sights that were added are adequate but would be difficult to get into action during a fight, particularly the rear-sight. They function like what they are, an afterthought.


The good news is that ammunition is considered an essential part of the system. As a result whatever round it fires will be optimized to work in the new system. There is no reason to believe that round will be M-855.
 
2. I am not sold on the magazine release. It has a paddle style magazine release with two levers on either side of the front of the trigger guard. The two levers are too hard to manipulate with you firing hand requiring two hands to drop the magazine vs. one on an M-4.
I found just the opposite. It was so easy to operate, I had to be careful ont to hit it accidentally with my trigger finger! I suggested either a heavier spring or some sort of gate to prevent inadvertant mag drops. THAT'S a real hazzard

I think the mag pouch argument is a non-issue. Sure, I want different mags and them funny numbs removed, but I don't see as how spending $3 a pop for new magazine pouches is going to break anybody's bank.
 
I found just the opposite. It was so easy to operate, I had to be careful ont to hit it accidentally with my trigger finger! I suggested either a heavier spring or some sort of gate to prevent inadvertant mag drops. THAT'S a real hazzard
Two of us tried it. Neither was able to actuate it with our trigger finger. Perhaps it is a question of hand size.
I think the mag pouch argument is a non-issue. Sure, I want different mags and them funny numbs removed, but I don't see as how spending $3 a pop for new magazine pouches is going to break anybody's bank.
Given the fact that the Army's supply system is notorious for fielding different items designed to be used together at different times, I believe it is a huge issue. Soldiers will have problems putting the new magazines in the current magazine pouches. Perhaps they will get it right, but I am not holding my breath. Also, given that (conservatively) there are probably 2-300,000 soldiers that will need to be equipped with new magazine pouches, that $3 adds up. Also consider we just spent money fielding the MOLLE system. That is money that could have been put to better use elsewhere.
 
Have you priced magazine pouches lately?

I reckon he's talking of the army buying in hundreds-of-thousand-pouch lots.

I'll admit the XM8 has grown on me somewhat the more I've seen of it. Don't see as as how it's so terribly superior, but at least most all the backwards steps are fixed. The new 40mm attachment looked pretty slick, I gotta say. :)

If they could make it work with a more M16-type mag system, I'd like it more, but then.. I ain't on any review board for the thing. :)
 
I hope that the ARMY gets slapped by congress on this one. There is a little issue of buy American. Its on every contract that has run across my desk in the last year. The Army should not be able to fiddle around this. If HK wants to move their corp headquaters to the good old USA, thats one thing. It further annoys me when I look at all the ( non) support the Schroeder govermnent has been on the Iraq issue over the last couple of years.

There is a Buy American Act, and I don't see any exclusions for firearms. This is the ARMY dancing around the law, to get whatever they want. or think they want, they need to comply with this law. Totally UNSAT in my opinion.
 
There is a little issue of buy American. Its on every contract that has run across my desk in the last year. The Army should not be able to fiddle around this.
You do realize that half of the military's small arms are made by FN right? Fabrique Nationale of Belgium? The whole point of HK building a plant in the US is to get around production issues like this.
 
Do a little reading on the act. I know there are exceptions like LCD glass, none is produced in the US. It specifically talks about building components overseas and slapping them together in the US.

I am not the legal beagle here, but isn't FN in SC a full up manufacturing facility? And aren't they an American subsidiary? Look at FN's website:

http://www.fnmfg.com/subcont/ind-sub.htm


This isn't what HK's proposing, Hk is looking to get a hold into our arms industry by offering minimum wage jobs where a monkey can throw the stuff together from kits out of Germany. If they want the contract they need to build the infrastructure stuff here, from high tech plastics, to the CNC machines.

And even with FN they are dancing around the law. The purpose of this law is that my American tax dollars get spent in the USA first, and contracts are awarded to Corporations who pay into our tax system, not sitting offshore wiggling around our tax codes.
 
This isn't what HK's proposing, Hk is looking to get a hold into our arms industry by offering minimum wage jobs where a monkey can throw the stuff together from kits out of Germany
I believe that is only the first step. They don't want to invest the money in full US manufacturing until they have a contract that will pay for it, so they propose the initial runs to be parts guns of sorts.

I believe Berreta did the same with the M9 and FN did so with the M240.
 
I wonder if they are going to up the caliber to the 6.8mm round?

Iron sights as an AFTERTHOUGHT??? That's a BIG problem. Iron sights need to be ruged and good on any main combat rifle, I don't trust batteries and glass!
 
I hope that the ARMY gets slapped by congress on this one. There is a little issue of buy American. Its on every contract that has run across my desk in the last year. The Army should not be able to fiddle around this. If HK wants to move their corp headquaters to the good old USA, thats one thing. It further annoys me when I look at all the ( non) support the Schroeder govermnent has been on the Iraq issue over the last couple of years.

There is a Buy American Act, and I don't see any exclusions for firearms. This is the ARMY dancing around the law, to get whatever they want. or think they want, they need to comply with this law. Totally UNSAT in my opinion.

You hope the Army gets slapped for wanting a superior weapon? :scrutiny:

The majority of the small arms are produced by foreign corporations. Fabrique Nationale has the lion's share at the moment. Beretta has a lock on all the sidearms. Colt is the only domestic corporation that cranks out a large number of small arms, and it's looking like they'll lose their contract soon enough.

I personally love the XM8. I'm probably biased, because I loved the G36 even before the XM8 was designed. Problem is funding. Seems like Congress doesn't want to foot the bill, even when the majority of the soldiers are drooling over the XM8. Maybe the Army beancounters will be able to pull something off...

Ya want the Army to get better weapons made in America by Americans? Slap a blissninny and get the NFA repealed. American military small arms industry can been crippled by it, in my opinion.
 
You hope the Army gets slapped for wanting a superior weapon?
All the information I've seen points to the conclusion that the XM8 is, at best, a marginal improvement over the M4/M16 series. Why spend a billion dollars for something that's really not significantly better than what we've already got?

I say, replace the current uppers with a gas-piston upper, ideally in 6.8 or 6.5mm, and save several hundred million dollars and get a better weapon in the bargain.
 
Superior? Until it has the capability of close combat via the form of a bayonet attachment, it is a range queen, not a battle rifle to send into combat. Ditto for being built enought to withstand buttstrokes.

Or does the Army believe that close combat stops because they purchase the damned thing like the Airforce did with guns on fighters because of the advent of missles?

Hopefully the Corps will exercise some sound judgement here.

Cruc, twist and withdraw, Cruc
 
part of me is glad the XM8 is going to die. The idea of the military fielding a superior rifle platform compared to civilians just doesn't sit well with my libertarian side. I mean wasn't the 2nd amendment designed to make sure the people and the government had a level playing field?

atek3
 
Let's see...
m1903a3rifle.jpg

M1Garand.jpg

LoadedStandard.jpg

m15a2_400.gif


Which should come next?

G36RIFLE.jpg


or

Xm8-1.jpg


I truly fail to see the point of reinventing the wheel this many times. 'Course, I think that the M-14 was the last good rifle we had, but that's just me. :)
 
The good news is that ammunition is considered an essential part of the system. As a result whatever round it fires will be optimized to work in the new system. There is no reason to believe that round will be M-855.
That is the only part of the XM8 that really bothered me, something like mk262 with a polymer casing would be real nice if we have to stick to 5.56mm. seems like all the other countries rifles firing SS109 have a lot more barrel than the M4 or XM8.
 
There aint gonna be no XM8 contract. Colt aint gonna stop making M4s....
Wish I had your crystal ball. Congress HAS killed the XM8 on a few occasions, but the Army is free to fund the items IT wants and IT wants the XM8.
 
A Senator told me the XM-8 is going into full production in 2005. Like it or not, the XM-8 is our new rifle.
Colt is still making M-4's sure... but I wouldn't want to bet on how much longer they are going to be doing that for the US Army. Air Force, Navy, Marines... they are all still holding off on the XM-8 as it stands right now. But after they all see how well the XM-8 does they'll probably switch over.

What does that mean for Colt? It means they are going to have to come back to the Civilian market.
 
Army is free to fund the items IT wants and IT wants the XM8.

Only within very specific dollar thresholds, they cannot do any major procurement without Congress's approval. Congress controls the water valve on funding, and the Army isn't about to end up having that supply shut off or restricted for several years.

I also want to chime in on this, I don't have any comment at all on the technical merits or lack of on these rifles. I don't think any of us are near enough knowledgable to really comment with any authority.

My comments are strickly about buying foriegn made weapons. I also don't hear any perks for the US on this. The Beretta pistols got us Pershing missles in Italy, what the upside of this?

One of the purposes of the Buy American Act is so we are not dependent on foriegn nations for critical war related items. HK wants to send in kits to the US for these rifles, what if are buddy Shroeder who has opposed everything we are doing in Iraq, had shipments of those components tied up and not shipped for 18 months, while our troops need them? The best mousetrap in the world won't do much good if there tied up in a customs warehouse in Germany and a diplomatic war is ragging, only the rats in Iraq will celebrate.
 
they cannot do any major procurement without Congress's approval
This isn't a major procurement, this is initial low-rate production. As for the Beretta, the missiles you speak of were banned by treaty shortly thereafter. Besides, the M9 is made in the USA! As is the FN M16 rifle and, I believe, the M249 SAW as well! Why do you think HK is building a factory here? It'll happen, denial isn't going to stop it from happening.
 
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