Generation XM8 Initial reports favor Heckler & Koch,

[otomik]

as long as it's built in the USA i don't see how you can reasonably complain. Otherwise I hear the same creeping jingoistic logic that guided the French to adopt a host of inferior domestic arms.

Colt return to the civilian market? judging by their reaction to the AWB sunset I don't think you could force them to make one sound business decision.

 

[schromf]

Besides, the M9 is made in the USA! As is the FN M16 rifle and, I believe, the M249 SAW as well! Why do you think HK is building a factory here? It'll happen, denial isn't going to stop it from happening.

There is the whole issue, one is built in America, the other is kits being sent over to be assembled from foriegn parts. Read my previous posts, FN's are made here, the tooling, engineering and production is in the US.

And this is a big contract, it is going to be in the 10 million dollar mark or better initially, with the upside to 1 billion later, is not a small item procurement.

The one thing this thread has galvanised me on, I am drafting a letter to my Congressman on this.

If this is the future weapon system of the ARMY they need to be made here, not Germany.

And no this is not a attempt to protect Colt. If they loose their military contracts oh well, all is fair in military contracting. We have other manufacturers in the US, or if HK's wants this contract so badly they can invest up front to build a factory in the USA, not a assembly facility with less than 100 jobs.

Hk wants this so badly because Europe doesn't invest in their own defense and they know these rifles will flop if they need to rely on there domestic contracts.

They only thing that could make this stink more is if HK was a French company, that would be adding insult to injury.

 

[Destructo6]

FN's are made here, the tooling, engineering and production is in the US.

The engineering is certainly not here. The GA factory is, "FN Manufacturing, Inc" after all. Everything else is done in Herstal.

As for needing to be made here, again:

I believe that (assembling German parts in the US) is only the first step. They don't want to invest the money in full US manufacturing until they have a contract that will pay for it, so they propose the initial runs to be parts guns of sorts.

I believe Berreta did the same with the M9 and FN did so with the M240.

If the XM8 is adopted, it will be made here. Maybe not initial runs, but the bulk will be made in the USA, by Americans.

 

[schromf]

From FN USA website:

FULL SERVICE ENGINEERING DEVELOPMENT
CAD CAM
PRO-ENGINEER
SPECIAL TEST EQUIPMENT
* HIGH SPEED DATA ACQUISITION
* HIGH SPEED VIDEO
* PIEZOELECTRIC TRANSDUCERS


What is this if its not engineering? I am certainly not the contracting officer on this contract, but if this is the route the ARMY decides upon serious contractual restrictions need to be placed on HK.

I would also like to point out that HK just won pretty close to a 30 mil contract recently with the Dept of Homeland Security. Coupled with a 27 mil contract to Sig. 50 mil in US contracts awarded to foriegn firms, over half of which currently has no production capacity in the US.

If HK want this contract the need to invest first, we should not extend another contract until they step up to the plate.

 

[Wildalaska]

Im gonna repeat again...Aint gonna be no XM8 contract, Colt aint gonna lose the M4 contract,,,I could be wrong, but I dont think I am

WildinsideinfoAlaska

 

[El Tejon]

How could Congress sell out CT for GA?

Lot more money in CT. My money is on Wild. Go, Wild.

 

[Jeff White]

So many here are letting their personal biases overwhelm the truth

Ok starting from the top. Magazine pouches and other ancillary equipment are an issue. It's not like they are going to field a complete kit with the XM8. If the Army follows the procedures that they always have, units will get the XM8 and whatever BII (basic issue items) it comes with. Things like magazine pouches will be budgeted seperately and unit's may have to pay for them out of pocket.

Some commanders may not have the funds to buy them right away or buy them for all their soldiers at once. Even in the quantities the govt buys ammo pouches, the cost per unit is still just under $10 last I checked. So it's not cheap. Blackhawk6 is right about how haphazard fielding a new system can be. I remember that many units tried all kinds of ways to make the old holsters work when the M9 was fielded because they didn't have the money to buy the M12 holster.

RevDisk;
No one can make an M4 until 2008. The Army and Colt settled this issue in a lawsuit a couple years ago. The Army contended that the M4 was a logical derivitive of the M16A2. They tried to let the procurement contract out for bids by FN and others. Colt sued. They contended that there were enough changes to make the M4 function that were made on Colt's dime that the M4 was a new design. The court agreed and Colt has sole rights to the M4 until 2008. After that they can license production until somewhere around 2020 IIRC. There will be no M4s made by anyone but Colt in the US military until after 2008 period.

George;
I know you hate the M16, but my congressman tells me the XM8 while not dead, is far from a sure thing. In your zeal to see the American soldier armed with anything but an M16 you are overlooking the circus that military procurement is in the US. If you think for one minute that Colt, FN, SIG, Robinson Arms, Norinco, Kalashnikov or any other arms maker in the world who might be interested in selling a new rifle to the US military is going to roll over and let them make a potentially billion dollar contract without their porduct being looked at, your wrong. The minute the Army says they are buying any more then a Brigade or so's worth of them to test, the lawsuits will clog the court system for years. Smith and Wesson delayed adoption and fielding of the M9 for a little more then a year and forced a second round of tests. El Tejon may want to shift his practice from criminal law to procurement law, because our tax dollars are going to make plenty of lawyers wealthy over this. And we haven't even factored in the congressional delegations. can the Columbus GA/Phenix City AL delegations pull more weight then the Hartford CN/Columbia SC delegations? How many congress critters have constituant bases that would stand to lose jobs if Colt's wasn't making M4s and FN wasn't making M16A4s? Compare that to how many congresscritters are going to gain jobs if HK starts making XM8s in Columbus GA? I think there are only to congresscritters who would see any employment increases in their districts.

Despite all the hype and despite the feverant wishes of many on the internet, the XM8 is a developmental program. It's years away from being ready to field. Does anyone wonder why there is a silence about the last round of tests in the desert?

Once the Army and HK work it up into the weapon they think they want, it will still have to go through the standard procurement process. All the competition will get their chance to put thier rifle up head to head against it before a decision is made to adopt it as the standard service weapon. Then we'll see who's congressional delegation is strongest. Me, I am saying that when it all washes out, the decision will be made that it doesn't offer a substantial enough improvement to justify the cost of changing over. I think that's what I said when we first started this discussion a couple years ago.

Jeff

 

[corncob]

I went on a tour of the FN plant this past month. It isn't full of "monkeys assembling kits made in Belgium." It is huge. And it employs a bunch of South Carolinians.

I heard FN was competing pretty hard to try to get the M4 contract. Probably just a rumor, but one never knows.

Interestingly enough, the place was full of really short AR-15 barrels. This did not make any kind of impression on me at the time, but now I wonder what it was all about.

There are about 25 engineers on staff. I don't know how much of "the engineering" goes on in Columbia, though.

When I asked the guy showing us around about an internet rumor I heard about HK and Georgia and the Army's new rifle, he dismissed it out of hand. He said the current M16 is a good rifle. I'm pretty sure he used the word "reliable." He was not worried about losing his job, and the FN-made M16 is his bread and butter.

FWIW

 

[Destructo6]

The M240, 249, etc were not engineered in GA. Tooling and trouble shooting engineers, I'll buy, but FN does not rely on them to develop (engineer) their weapons systems.

 

[SunBear]

Blackhawk 6: You have a PM here. If that is not acceptable, please send me a PM or respond on this thread.

 

[MrAcheson]

Oh no! HK is starting with parts guns until they can get their manufacturing facility up and running! How horrible! By the way, this is exactly what FN and beretta did. This is how it always starts. Early weapons are made overseas until they have the manufacturing facilities here up to speed. This ensures that they start filling the contract properly and still have the means to make replacements domestically in time of war.

That and if its not made in the US it will never pass the congressional pork-barrel requirements. There is a reason every weapon system fielded by the military includes a chart of the congressional districts its components are made in. It ain't cause it looks pretty my friends.

 

[Badger Arms]

I truly fail to see the point of reinventing the wheel this many times. 'Course, I think that the M-14 was the last good rifle we had, but that's just me.

History lesson here. The M14 was a product improved M1 Garand which was a product improved weapon itself being developed from the .276 rifle that preceded it. The M1 went through a MAJOR redesign which changed the type of gas system used. The M14 was a work-in-progress when it was finalized and many thought it should have been improved more. In fact, it was a mature weapon, but the production tooling and engineering was left half-done. The Technical Data Packs were insufficient and the gun was no minor failure as a procurement program even if it was a good weapon. The fact was that we wanted a US DESIGNED gun and weren't going to settle for one of them superior foreign weapons (namely the FN FAL... only the weapon that armed most of the free world through the cold war!).

The M16 was pressed into service also half-concieved and underdeveloped. Stoner himself marveled that they did NOTHING to improve his cartridge stating that he was not a ballistics engineer. He expected that SOME development would have been done. The 'fixes' to the M16 were hit and miss and eventually the Marines got behind a significat overhaul which NEUTERED the basic attributs that made the M16 such a good weapon to begin with namely 1)weight which increased significantly 2)full-auto capability 3)lethality with the 1-in-12" and 55gr combo, and 4)sights which were made much more complex and the aperatures were made the wrong size!

So, now that we have an opportunity to re-arm and replace the LONGEST LIVED PRINCIPLE SMALL ARM IN US HISTORY, we hear the same old song and dance from the stalwarts and 'why-in-my-day' crowd. Those who complain about the costs must not realize that the Army already spends hundreds of times the cost of this program on programs which go nowhere like the Sgt. York and Comanche. Let's not forget, it's a small arm and a cheap one at that. The cost of the system overall is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Argue that point though you might, many of you buy $30,000 cars when your old one still runs, you can't lecture me on fiscal responsibility. I'm cheap and I still believe in the XM8.

 

[Owen]

Destucto6,

Yes, FNMI in Columbia does the majority of the engineering. Its required by the goverment development contracts. Those 25 engineers are design engineers.

That 25 number does not include the manufacturing and quality engineers.

FNMI did all of the engineering for the SPW, MK46, MK48, FN303, 40-9, FNP-9, Browning Pro-9, etc.

FNMI is also responsible for maitaining the m240 and M249 drawing package. The gvmt maintains the m16 package, due the whole Colt fiasco.

I know, I was one of those engineers.

Owen

 

[Badger Arms]

but if you could give me that XM8 optic on an HK M4 with their improved gas system and magazines, I might be able to compromise.

 

[Destructo6]

FNMI did all of the engineering for the SPW, MK46, MK48, FN303, 40-9, FNP-9, Browning Pro-9, etc.

FNMI certainly did not do all of the engineering for the FN303. That was done by Airgun Designs, who licensed it to FN. FN designed the outer plastic case.

FN had nothing to do with the development. We brought it mechanically finished to them and they licensed it from us. They did the plastic housing and the final rework of the chassis and exterior valve.

Originally we were the only group chosen out of about 100 entrants to receive development funding directly from the military. We went through several years of the military testing our stuff and they raised the bar every time. They really wanted something that was as accurate as an M16 at 100 yrds. We had already invested the time (no profit they only paid expenses) so we kept coming back and every time we met their specs.

We were almost ready to go when the General that was behind us was shot in the head by his wife. No general means nothing happens in the military and the project languished. FN came to see a demo we did for the National Guard and thats how it started.

We thought this project was going to take 6 months, it took years and cost me my place in consumer paintball. We now know it took 16 years to get the M1 Garand into popular use in the military. It was a little faster at 15 years for the M16. If I knew that then, I would have skipped the whole thing.

My only consolation is that when my team competes on performance, we win, even against formidable military companies.


International Arms Dealer,

AGD

For the others, I'll have to take your word for it.

 

[Owen]

The FN 303 was by no means ready for primetime when recived from Airgun Designs.

 

[theCZ]

Amen to that Badger Arms, I always think the same thing about the M14 when everyone keeps talking about how great it is. I love it and everything, but the FAL design was, and always will be a better design and perhaps if it was adopted things would be very different. I'm not sure, but was the M14 ever extensively combat tested?