Getting a BP revolver for defense - yea or nay?

[Tom44]

I realize it's a rather odd request, but I'm considering getting a percussion-fired revolver for use as a bedside gun. This wouldn't be a primary home-defense piece, but just a supplement to a long gun under the bed. I'm a college student, planning to move to an off-campus apartment in the fall, and I'll finally be able to own my own firearms, now that I'll be living neither in university housing (with the accompanying weapons policy) nor at home (with two parents who are solidly anti-2a). I'm going to be purchasing a couple of guns for home defense and for general fun (an 18.5" 20ga. pump and a semiauto .22 rifle, respectively), but I'd also like a decent revolver for defense (mostly in case I awake to find trouble urgent enough that I don't have time to get the shotgun). The problem is that I can't legally purchase a handgun for another year. The only way I can legally get a handgun under PA law is if one of my parents buys one and then transfers it to me (parent-child handgun transfers don't need a background check here), but that's never going to happen. However, I can legally purchase a bp revolver, and what I do with my own paycheck is none of my parents' business, so I'm considering a cap-and-ball revolver for a last-ditch defensive piece. Do you think that this would be a good idea or not?





If I do get a bp revolver, I'd also like your advice on what exactly I should get. Most of the advice I've seen has recommended .36 caliber or so for first-time bp shooters, but I can't afford two handguns right now, with the long gun purchases, all the cleaning supplies I'll need to get started, and a good locking cabinet. So, I'll only be getting one handgun, and with it being single-action and needing about as long to reload as it would take the police to arrive, I want it to pack a good punch, so I would prefer it to be .44/.45 caliber. I'd also prefer that the cylinder have notches to rest the hammer between chambers, so I don't need to leave a chamber empty for the hammer to rest on. That's not an absolute requirement, though. By the time I'd manage to get off even 5 shots SA, I figure that either the fight will be over - one way or another - or I'll have been able to retreive the shotgun. A trigger guard, though, is a must (not that I've seen too many guns without one).

So, basically, I'm looking for recommendations as to what models would suit my needs. Ideally, I'd like a Ruger Old Army, but even that is a bit pricey for me right now ($400 is the lowest I've seen for one), and I'd probably have to forgo either the rifle or shotgun in order to get one. (I'd probably just get the rifle, since I'm still fairly new to shooting and I'd rather have something I can afford to do a lot of practice with. Besides, the longest range in my apartment will be about 10 yards, and at that distance, I can put 10 rounds of high-velocity .22 hollowpoints COM just as fast as I can pull the trigger.) What other models might work?

Also, I've seen a few "snub-nosed" bp revolvers (which are still significantly larger than what I'd normally consider a snubby) on various catalog sites - what kind of quality could I expect out of one of these, and would the ballistics still be suitable for defensive work? I ask because there are a few in-home armed robberies every year in my (future) neighborhood, and it would be nice if I had something I could conceal when I go to answer the door.

 

[Imaginos]

Smokin'

I think you should stick with the shotgun until you can afford a modern gun. I used a 44 Remington clone as a back up to my 12 ga for a while, but the 12ga was always the first choice.

Don't get the snub nosed versions, you will lose too much muzzle velocity and energy which is already somewhat lacking in BP revolvers.

If you want to shoot targets with it, the Remington style guns with a top strap are a bit more shooter friendly than the Colt clones. Both types can be very accurate, but the Colt clones usually require some tweaking to get them right. You need to remember that the originals were designed as combat weapons, and they were sighted for 50-75 yards from the factory to give them more effective range on the battlefield.

As far as brands go, Uberti and Pietta are the standard spaghetti shooters, and they make decent guns. Almost all of the reproductions commonly available come from one of there two regardless of who the US distributor is. The Ruger Old Army is still considered the top of the line in BP revolvers, and their price is worth it.

Since you are just starting out, I would suggest picking up a copy of Elmer Keith's book Sixguns. It is fun reading, and an excellent place to learn about revolvers in general.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tom;

There are a number of problems concerning the proposed use you have for a cap & ball revolver. I'd suggest another alternative. Once you move secure the doors and/or windows so that if someone tried to break in it will buy you time to get your shotgun. In the meantime save your money so that when you do reach that happy 21st. birthday you can buy a top-quality handgun - or maybe more then one. The next 12 months or so will give you plenty of time to examine the possibilities and choices.

 

[Crownvicman]

I would say get a good BP Sixgun, because every shooter should have one! But when things go bump in the night, reach for the shotgun. An Army or Navy sized cap and ball revolver is nothing to laugh at, but there is much less to go wrong with a more modern weapon.

 

[scotjute]

Tom44,

I've been on camping trips where only gun I brought was my black powder pistol, and felt comfortable with that. That is not my normal practice nor do I recommend it to others. Normally always have a modern long gun available.

In my house however I maintain access to modern revolvers. They're loaded and always shoot. Barring that I would use shotgun or pistol-caliber carbine. While it has been done successfully by others, leaving a black-powder gun loaded for long periods of time is not recommended due to the fact that the powder actively attracts moisture (forget the term for that) and hence the longer it remains loaded, the more probable it is that it will not fire due to damp powder. Wild Bill Hickock would routinely fire his Navy revolvers daily, hence they were always freshly loaded.

In your case I'd recommend the shotgun. If I were a burglar, there could be no more frightening sound than that of a pump shotgun being cycled somewhere in the dark during a break-in.

 

[4v50 Gary]

shotgun

Rule 2 of gunfighting: bring a bigger gun. A ball from a BP revolver will kill a person just as dead today as it did in the Civil War. However, Rule 2 rules!

 

[Joe Demko]

I used a stainless replica of a Remington .44 for exactly the same reasons you've mentioned. I never felt under-gunned. If you choose to do it, you can take the following FWIW:
1. Get a stainless model. Blackpowder will corrode the chambers of a blue pistol just from being in prolonged contact with them.
2. Like Wild Bill Hickock, you should periodically fire off your loads, clean and reload the gun. He did it on a daily basis which may not be practical for you.
3. Although the old hog legs will work okay as a bedside gun, they are just too big to be really practical as carry pieces.
4. If you get caught with a loaded one in your car or on your person, you will still be in a world of legal doo-doo even though it is considered a non-gun for commerce purposes.
Good luck.

 

[Burt Blade]

Black Powder cap-n-ball guns have some serious shortcomings as defensive weapons, which is why we now have the 1911 and Glock.

They are finicky to load, shoot, and clean.

Firing a .45 auto in a bedroom is bad enough, firing that Remington .44 charged with Black powder is much less so. The amount of smoke you generate will make the second and subsequent shots a rather dicey proposition. _Outdoors_, shooting full-house loads, I wind up squatting under the smog for follow up shots, or just waiting for the breeze to clear the air.

You can easily set fire to the rug, curtains, and other sundries, as BP guns throw a large number of flaming embers.

Percussion caps on adjacent chambers can fall off the nipple when the gun is fired. "Click" is no fun in a gunfight.


However, c-n-b revolvers _are_ guns, and they have counted a rather large number of coup in their 168 (or so) year history. Since Rule 1 is "have a gun", they are Rule 1 compliant.

If you must go this route, I suggest an Uberti-made Remington 1858. They are very reliable, sturdy, cool-looking, easy(er) to clean, and did I say cool-looking?

 

[Paco]

Tom44,

Go for a Stainless Ruger Old-Army, even if you fore-go on one of the other guns. It was first handgun ever when I was a youngblood. I have many different types of handguns and I still love that gun. Let's see what it's got going for it:

-Great trigger- you'll appreciate the virtues of a single action trigger, knowledge that will segue nicely to a 1911!
-With conicals and 40gr. of powder, you've got more power that a 45acp.
-You can buy all sorts of aftermarket grips since the OA shares the BH/Vaquero grip frame.
-VERY intimidating.
-Methodical at the range: really makes you appreciate every shot and the mechanics behind that shot.
-great holsters for it. I can clear and cock and shoot an OA very fast outta leather.
-Hell for stout: you won't blow a ruger.
-Massive, massive style points. You look like a champ using the thing!!!

Some pointers:
-use conicals. more accurate, better trajectory, so you can shoot farther out and for hunting or defense, hits harder. Go for 185gr, or 200 gr conicals.
-I've successfully shot hornady 185gr 45 hp bullets through mine and they clover-leafed at 15 yards!!! Use something like a thin piece of silk to help hold them in since they are only .454 and you need .457 for the ruger.
-use wonder wads! Helps with cleaning and helps build some of the pressure up a bit. Also protects against flashing the other chambers.
-use lard or lube or something over each bullet to help with cleaning and to protect against flashing off the other holes.
-Eventually save up for an R&D conversion cylinder: you then can shoot centerfire outta your ruger! Costly though, both in cartridges and in the cylinder, and you can't shoot beastly loads.

Remember, these guns dispatched people with aplumb back in the day. The ruger allows you to load more powder than what was conventionally used with better conicals and the possibility of jacketed bullets. You'll be surprised as to how accurate that gun can be! Good luck!

-paco

 

[Paco]

Ps. you can use powders that don't give off any more smoke than modern smokeless powder, and they are just as clean!

-I've never, even firing fast, had a cap fall off on my gun, and the only misfires I had were when the gun had been fired 100 times and residue started giving the caps a hard time.

 

[Joe Demko]

I'd like to second everything Paco said about the Ruger OA, it is a great piece. I'd like to add, though, that it is very expensive compared to most bp revos. You OP indicates that you are subject to some financial limits and that you've already found the OA a touch spendy for your means. If you really want the OA, are you willing to forego the shotgun to have it?

 

[TerryBob]

I bought a Remington 1858 when I was 15 years old and it stayed by my bedside until I was old enough to by a Ruger Security Six. Like others have said before, get one in stainless if you plan to keep it loaded and fire it off ever so often to keep a freesh load. Clean it well with careful attention given to the nipples being clear of fouling. Use a nipple pick. Dent the caps or use those little rubber cap savers. The cap savers will keep moisture out. Use the felt wads between powder and ball and grease as mentioned above. I see no reason not to keep one by the bedside if you are so inclined. I did for several years.

Caps will come off if you dont use proper care and the revolver will chain fire if that happens. I know this well. I once had three go off on me. Talk about strange recoil.

I dont know about using a capper with the revolver because I have always dented my caps to keep them from falling off. Does anyone here dent the caps and put them in a capper? How well does the capper work with dented caps?

TerryBob

 

[mec]

You can distill some good information from these excellent posts.
1. First Choice -Ruger stainless if you can afford it. It has modern parts/metallurgy and is not prone to broken parts.
2 Second Choice =Stainless Remington Replica
3. Choice Blue Remington Rep/ Clean BP replica powder.

American Pioneer, Clean Shot and hogdons 777 are fairly easy to clean compared to Black powder. What I have found is that Clean shot and American Pioneer produce much less velocity than Black Powder or Pyrodex while H 777 produces significantly more. ( with some surprises and exceptions)

You can load your revolver and minimize the hydroscopic qualities of powder or resideue by filling the chamber mouths with store bp lubricant or crisco and by applying a little bit of wax around the caps. Don't over do the latter as excessive sticky grease encourages cap fragments to stick to the hammer- the breach cut under the hammer or in the action

Your circumstance of being less than 21 makes the purchase of a bp revolver for defense a great deal more sensible than it will be after the magic birthday.
One side note- Burglars love off-campus student apartments and hit them with regularity. You will almost certainly need a strategy for protecting your guns-long and short.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

I have already used a BP revolver for defense.

I will give you all a very sage piece of advice. Never pee on a rattlesnake. They don't like it.

I can tell you from personal experience that a highly scared individual can accurately empty a BP revolver in a very short period of time. I have other more suitable choices for personal defense, but I trust my 58' Remington spaghetti clone implicitly and wouldn't hesitate to use it if the need arose.

ZM

 

[Grunt]

Well, coming from somebody that has a LOT of BP revolvers around (I do CAS and re-enactments as well so they tend to pile up around here) they are fun to shoot, ballistics are still good enough to get the job done, and they don't corrode if you clean them correctly (no petroleum based solvents or lubes). However, I also recognize them for what they are and that is a dated design that for real world problems have gone the way of the dinosaur. They are slow to reload (even with paper cartridges), fumble-prone when having to cock the hammer for each shot with adrenelin-numb thumbs and fingers, smoke is going to be a problem in confined areas, loaded cylinders attract moisture and can be degraded over time, and caps can fall off and fragments can bind up the cylinder or fall into the action if not cocked right. My wife used a couple .36 Navy revolvers for one SASS shoot last year and one cap fell down into the frame so the hammer would not stay back. I took it apart and sure enough, a cap fragment was over the nose of the hammer. Times and technology have come a long way since 1861. If you have a shotgun, that is going to be a dang good home defense weapon. Since you have to wait a while until you are old enough to buy a handgun, start saving your money now and get a decent quality piece when you do turn 21. I'm not saying the low end handguns like the Makarov are POS (well, Jennings, Lorcin, High Point and a few others are) but if you start saving now, you could own a Sig, Glock, Beretta, Springfield 1911 or XD or even an HK, all quality firearms. Nope, BP revolvers are fun to plink, target shoot and maybe even CAS shooting but for defense, I'm going to leave mine sit and use something a bit more modern.

 

[Paco]

All,

This is the thing. When I bought my ruger old-army, I was 17 years old. That's right-four years away from my 'magic birthday'. Couldn't even own a modern centerfire/rimfire longgun. But at least I had six good shots NOW, not later. If something went down, I was prepared now. That's the crux of this whole thing we're discussing.

If our youngblood here was 21 and over, I'd definitely steer him clear of owning a bp revolver over the miriad of great guns we have today, but if he has a strong desire to have a sidearm now to go with his scattergun, then why wait to have a decently rounded defense package: solid longarm backed-up by a decent six-shooter. You could definetely do worse in the now.


Tom44,
-if not, let the shotty do all the speaking for you, and save up for that first sweet one .

 

[Grunt]

Ever thought abuot a conversion cylinder?

Well, here's another option. Get the Ruger or Remington C&B revolver and get a .45 Colt conversion cylinder for it. As far as the ATF is concerned, the replacement cylinder is a part and not subject to the same 4413 forums and other nonsense as a complete weapon. Now I'm not sure how that would play being that you are under 21 or what kind or what your specific laws are regarding this so you might want to check that over first. However, if you get either a Kirst (my prefered conversion complete with the loading port and ejector) or an R&D cylinder, you can either shoot BP cartridges or a smokeless equivilant load, the sort that is generally used by CAS shooters. I've used both black and CAS smokeless loads out of mine and they work great. At least this way you can get away from the problems of loaded cylinders loosing their potency or rusting, cap fit and frgments binding up everything and also enhance reloading time. No, it's still no modern auto, but at least it's a lot better than having to go the C&B route.

 

[TerryBob]

I went to the range yesterday and took my two black powder revolvers. It was a great day to be out and I had a lot of fun.

I was a little concerned about my 1858 Remington before I went. I had loaded it before deer season (I use it for a backup gun) around mid October. I loaded it very carefully using felt wads between powder and ball and denting the caps but it got rained on and snowed on several times during the season. It had also went through a bunch of temperature changes which can cause moisture build up and then sat in a hardshell case until yesterday, still loaded. I never expected the thing to go off but it did. Every shot went off flawlessly. I thought that all off that rain and snow would ruin my load but it didn't. Yipeeeee!!!

TerryBob

 

[Stevel]

From a practical standpoint a bp may not be the greatest choice. But...I could just imagine a bad guys reaction when you touched off 40 grains of bp in an apartment. He'll probably think you popped a flash bang! As has been mentioned, if you were over 21 the suggestion would be different, but for under 21 I think you would have the cool meter pegged. I wish I had thought of it when I was 18-20. Check packing.org. I think even bp pistols in PA need a permit for carrying outside your dwelling.

FWIW some ballistics info on bp revolvers: The suggestion was to use round ball because of deformation and energy transfer they tend to be more effective than conicals, even in a higher weight(in this application at least).

cal. / ball gr. / FFFG / foot lbs. / stop%
.31 46 12 69 30
.36 79 22 189 59
.44 141 30 179 59
.44 141 35 274 75
.44 141 40 333 79(Ruger O/A)
.44 141 50 437 85(Colt Dragoon)
.44 141 60 519 87(Colt Walker)

Also get the shotgun.

 

[Kaylee]

I agree with the "well.. at least you'll have something now way of thinking. Sure, it ain't ideal, but hey.. they killed plenty of folks once upon a time, and will still do the same today. Plus, it sounds like money ain't so much of an issue to you that $250 in pistol and supplies now will majorly dent your getting a "real" pistol in a few years.

So go ahead... worst case, you'll have a nice toy in a few years to look back on fondly.

Anyhow, in your place, I'd get the shotgun, a BOLT .22 (CZ! ), and whatever BP pistol took your fancy.. the .44 Remington sounds like just what you're asking for.

-K

 

[roscoe]

I would get a black-powder pistol just because it is so damn cool. I am sure that if you had to touch that sucker off to defend yourself in your apartment, the fight would be over right there. Hell, even cocking it is likely to set a thug's innards churning.

 

[c_yeager]

Honestly comparing the terminal ballistics of a black powder revolver and a shotgun loaded with double ought should answer this question quite nicely. A shotgun is arguably among the VERY shorlist of most lethal weapons possible at very short ranges. A BP revolver doesnt come anywhere close.

You can keep the shotty next to the bed just as easily as you can the revolver.

 

[gunsmith]

what C_ Yeager said

You can allways leave the shotgun out (at night) ,if you have a girl over and she says anything, rent "Dawn of the dead" (the new one) or " Night of the living dead" (the original) not only will she not get out of bed but she will be glad you can protect her from the zombie hordes out there
( tell her it's a documentary,it works for mike moore!)
From what I've read in this thread I would go ahead and get the Ruger OA,you can make a big bang! if the badguy doesn't die from the shot he will have a heart attack...or he will be set on fire and have a heart attack then die from the GSW

 

[Jim K]

This may be superfluous, but when you use a C&B revolver for defense, or when you carry one, it legally becomes a firearm just like a cartridge revolver. As for utility, a C&B revolver is just as good as its equivalent cartridge revolver with standard loads (.38 Special or .44 Special/.44-40) for the first 6 shots. If you make those count, the slow reloading is less of a problem, although you can keep a spare cylinder loaded. A caution on spare cylinders, though. If you drop a capped cylinder, and it lands on a cap, it is the same as a short barrel pistol; the ball goes someplace, and could injure or kill.

Jim