About like a firm but friendly handshake...no pressure from the thumb at all
Getting better control of your hands
- Thread starter mikemyers
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Potatohead
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Thanks.
BCRider
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A "firm but friendly handshake" is how I like to say it as well.
Another that came up which struck a note with me was "the same as you hold a hammer for nailing where you will be doing it ALL DAY". That's another good example for those that actually do such things.
Sadly we seem to be producing less and less younger folks that will find this a useful description.
Another that came up which struck a note with me was "the same as you hold a hammer for nailing where you will be doing it ALL DAY". That's another good example for those that actually do such things.
Sadly we seem to be producing less and less younger folks that will find this a useful description.
If you are concentrating on a dot, you tend not to concentrate on the sights.
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mikemyers
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That is completely true, but I used to feel learning to NOT concentrate on the target, and TO concentrate on the front sight, was one of the things I needed to learn to do without even thinking about it.
I no longer see the dot as a target - it's a grey fuzzy blob, somewhere out there in front of my sights. (I'm cheating though - to help my old eyes do this best, I had a pair of glasses made up with a prescription specifically for the distance to the front sight. With these shooting glasses, I can no longer see the target clearly even if I want to...)
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mikemyers
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That's not cheating. Many of us did that in competition. I had the prescription ground into the top of my lenses, upside down bifocals, if you will, and they helped my scores a bit.
hemiram
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I have really really steady hands, that's never been a problem for me. Even at 58, I have zero shake. Caffeine never had much affect on me. I have friends much younger than I am who have such shakey hands that they can't do many things like working on electronics and doing anything with small parts assembling anymore, they just shake so badly.
My shooting as badly as I do seems to be totally due to changes in my eyesight, and just not doing it all that much. With a red dot or a scope, I'm great (Well, ok at least), but shooting a handgun with plain old 3 dots on it, I stink. I don't see the sights correctly. If the rear sight is clear, the front is blurry, and vice versa. I've tried several different glasses and nothing works better than the plain old single vision lenses I normally wear. I don't know how anyone wears bifocals, they drive me nuts. The one pair I did try sits in a drawer, I can't even stand to wear them in an emergency.
My shooting as badly as I do seems to be totally due to changes in my eyesight, and just not doing it all that much. With a red dot or a scope, I'm great (Well, ok at least), but shooting a handgun with plain old 3 dots on it, I stink. I don't see the sights correctly. If the rear sight is clear, the front is blurry, and vice versa. I've tried several different glasses and nothing works better than the plain old single vision lenses I normally wear. I don't know how anyone wears bifocals, they drive me nuts. The one pair I did try sits in a drawer, I can't even stand to wear them in an emergency.
Your unaided eyes can only focus on one distance at a time. Most competitive shooters focus on the front sight, centering it in the slightly off focus rear sight. The target is only in focus until the sight picture is attained.
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mikemyers
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Hmm, what you just described is not a problem, it IS "correctly". Your eyes should be focused ONLY on the front sight.
- The front sight should be clear
- The rear sight should be blurry.
- The target should be blurry.
I've still got much room to improve, but have made strides. A few drill that helped the most are;
1 slow down the triggering action. Line up on target and hold it on target. Move the trigger back a wee bit, hold it, move it back a bit more, hold it, repeat until it releases the hammer/striker. You can do this dry fire or live. If live firing, hold the trigger immobile after firing. Get back on target then let the trigger creep forward until you feel or hear the trigger reset. Only let it go forward until it resets, that will minimize trigger travel.
2 dry fire with a cheap laser. "Low profile laser" search on ebay will turn up ones under 20 bucks. Aim at a target, dry fire and keep that dot still.
3 balance an empty case on the front of the gun while dry firing. Hold it balanced for 5 sec before firing. Increase the hold time as you gain calmness.
There's a ton of drills, but those helped in working the finger action.
My next challenge is improving mentally to hold razor sharp focus for a full magazine.
1 slow down the triggering action. Line up on target and hold it on target. Move the trigger back a wee bit, hold it, move it back a bit more, hold it, repeat until it releases the hammer/striker. You can do this dry fire or live. If live firing, hold the trigger immobile after firing. Get back on target then let the trigger creep forward until you feel or hear the trigger reset. Only let it go forward until it resets, that will minimize trigger travel.
2 dry fire with a cheap laser. "Low profile laser" search on ebay will turn up ones under 20 bucks. Aim at a target, dry fire and keep that dot still.
3 balance an empty case on the front of the gun while dry firing. Hold it balanced for 5 sec before firing. Increase the hold time as you gain calmness.
There's a ton of drills, but those helped in working the finger action.
My next challenge is improving mentally to hold razor sharp focus for a full magazine.
BCRider
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A long time bullseye shooter does not try to do any such thing. The human body simply can't hold still that long and remain steady. We're only human after all....
Instead he'll raise the gun, sight and squeeze off one shot. Then he lowers the gun to rest the gun against the shooting table. After a few seconds of relaxing he raises it and squeezes off another shot. This is how it's done for slow paced accurate shooting where the ultimate accuracy is the goal.
For timed events speed comes into the picture. But that's a whole other kettle of fish. Now it's about pacing to use all the allowed time. Or for a timed event it's about achieving a level of acceptable accuracy in a short time. IPSC, IDPA and cowboy action are examples of this last style where time is often more important than accuracy. But if the accuracy is really bad then the score will suffer despite being a very fast shooter.
So be fair to yourself. Don't try for pinpoint accuracy for a whole mag from one hold. Space it out with a shot or two then a few seconds of relaxation. Or if you want to shoot off a whole magazine in around 8 to 10 seconds then ease up on your acceptable level of accuracy. For example a steady paced fire of a magazine of one shot per second would be doing nicely to keep all 10 in a 3 inch circle at 15 yards.
Some can do it faster and some can do it tighter. But if you can shoot one round a second and keep them all in 3 at 15 you can go home with your chest proudly puffed out with good cause. ESPECIALLY given "our" ages.
I've found that even only having shot for 5 years now that my groups back then when I started out seemed a little tighter than I'm able to produce today. But to be fair I seem to recall that much of my shooting was at 12'ish yards and most of it these days is at 15, 20 or 25 yards when going for bullseye stuff. So I might be comparing apples to oranges.
However I do know that it's a good day for me when I can get a few groups of around 3 inches at my club's 20 yard indoor range. Typically I get a few flyers that open it up to 4'ish inches.
Just curious if you also still teach shooting from the Weaver arm geometry...as the isometric hand pressure was so integrated to it?
While this pressure will feel more "locked in" and is what I have taught when I only had a limited amount of time with a student, the downside is that followup shots are much slower.
This is very much a beginning bullseye technique. Starting and stopping your trigger press, with a new shooter, will often tempt them to jerk the trigger in anticipationjohn_bud said:
Follow though, holding the trigger back after letoff, is very important and letting the trigger creep forward is how trigger reset (distance) is learned...just be aware that is is only an intermittent goal, in shooting from reset
9mmE commented on the very things I was going to comment on.
Another downside, IMO, is that the push and pull are two additional (and unnecessary) things one must apply consistently for best shot-to-shot accuracy.
+1. Start the pull and finish it smoothly. You can abort the shot if all doesn't look right, but mentally commit a smooth and complete pull before you start it. If the sights are aligned when you start, they ought to be aligned when the shot breaks. Do as Yoda drilled: "Try not. Do or do not. There is no try"
9mmepiphany said:
Another downside, IMO, is that the push and pull are two additional (and unnecessary) things one must apply consistently for best shot-to-shot accuracy.
9mmepiphany said:
+1. Start the pull and finish it smoothly. You can abort the shot if all doesn't look right, but mentally commit a smooth and complete pull before you start it. If the sights are aligned when you start, they ought to be aligned when the shot breaks. Do as Yoda drilled: "Try not. Do or do not. There is no try"
Potatohead
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I wonder if this was taught to "old" LEOs. My unc, now retired from the police dept in my town, taught me this on my first day of shooting. Ive since dropped it for the most part. No disrespect intended. I do think it mightve helped me some when I was trying to get my feet on the ground.
Glock Doctor
Member
Mike, I suggest you take a look at the several posts contributed by, 'Ravenu' here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_9_4/233552_Good_trigger_pull_advice.html&page=1&anc=top#top
And here, as well:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_13/151021_Groupig_left_problem_solved.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_9_4/233552_Good_trigger_pull_advice.html&page=1&anc=top#top
And here, as well:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_13/151021_Groupig_left_problem_solved.html
Potatohead
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Mr Borland,9mmE commented on the very things I was going to comment on.
Another downside, IMO, is that the push and pull are two additional (and unnecessary) things one must apply consistently for best shot-to-shot accuracy.
+1. Start the pull and finish it smoothly. You can abort the shot if all doesn't look right, but mentally commit a smooth and complete pull before you start it. If the sights are aligned when you start, they ought to be aligned when the shot breaks. Do as Yoda drilled: "Try not. Do or do not. There is no try"
Dont you do some kind of trick or sleight of hand with the gun or something? Seems i remember when I first joined I was reading a thread once and 9mm Epiphany mentioned "maybe mr Borland will be by to do his...". And like magic, you appeared and voila, did it. Maybe Im crazy and have this mixed up with something else but what was it you do? (if that's you and Im not crazy)
Trick? Sleight of hand? ehh...'fraid not. WYSIWYG
You do have a good memory, though. From the thread you linked to earlier:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8978792&postcount=44
You do have a good memory, though. From the thread you linked to earlier:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8978792&postcount=44
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mikemyers
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I read through the threads, and the part that seemed most relevant to me was:
"Right now you're concentrating on the trigger pull. Things will get easier when you switch your consciousness from the trigger pull to the actual spot on the target that you want to hit. All great pistol shooting evolves from working off of, and more precisely controlling the pistol's backstrap. Some of the things you're going to have to learn how to do are (1) to (instinctively) grasp your pistol correctly, (2) immediately find the, 'control point' on the backstrap, and (3) use it to, 'work the muzzle over the target' - EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU GRASP THE GUN.
'Working the muzzle over the target' means that you're (1) going to have to learn how to carefully watch your front sight, AND (2) develop the correct proprioceptive reflexes in order to control recoil to the point where you consistently index and re:index the muzzle to the exact same target point, and ....."
'Working the muzzle over the target' means that you're (1) going to have to learn how to carefully watch your front sight, AND (2) develop the correct proprioceptive reflexes in order to control recoil to the point where you consistently index and re:index the muzzle to the exact same target point, and ....."
If you read the thread I posted about dry-firing, (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=757689) it describes one way of setting up an exercise/practice routine that one can follow. I spend half the time in SA, and half in DA. When I posted that thread, I thought my larger and heavier 357 had a poor trigger pull, because I had trouble holding the sights over the target as the trigger was coming back. I was surprised to find that I had the same problem (not as much, but still an issue) even with my small 357 which has a light, smooth trigger pull. (Which means the "problem" is me, not the gun.)
After doing this for a while, the best way I figured to work around it, was to accept that the gun wasn't going to remain lined up as that trigger came back, and to constantly adjust as necessary to keep the gun on target, especially when the gun was getting close to firing. As Ravenu noted, I found I was thinking less about what was going on with my trigger finger and the gun, and more about the front sights constantly being adjusted to be over the target (and even though the target is just a blurry gray piece of fuzz, I know where the center is). Actually, I think I'm thinking more about keeping that blurry target behind my front sight, rather than keeping my front sight in front of the blurry target - sort of the same thing, but after reading what Ravenu wrote, that describes what I'm trying to do, better than I can.
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mikemyers
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Here's the scenario. You just did that, as I was watching from a few feet away. After being amazed, I hand you my S&W 357 Highway Patrolman, which I've been told by a gun store worker that it has a good trigger, but which I still feel that it very much needs a trigger job. Who am I to judge, though. Anyway, you are now holding MY gun, and attempting to do the same "trick" (it's not really a trick, it just shows how smoothly you can do this).
How confident are you that this dime will still be in place, with my gun?
Glock Doctor
Member
That’s it! I think you’re well on your way.
Here’s an exercise you might want to add to the others that you’re already practicing: It’s very simple; and, in my experience, can produce big rewards. At a reasonable distance (not to exceed 12 to 15 yards) pick a precise point on the target and, then, fire into it as quickly as possible. The goal is to keep the group as small as possible.
If your experience is typical I think you’ll discover that there are specific pistol shooting functions that your mind and body will handle, ‘by rote’; (Functions such as: properly gripping the gun, correctly pulling the trigger, locking your wrist, flexing your elbow, and controlling the tension and tightness in the tendons of your lower forearm) and other more abstract pistol shooting functions that your mind and proprioceptive reflexes (muscle memory) need to be more keenly aware of, and learn how to balance and interrelate - the one to the other.
What do I mean? I mean you’ve got to learn how to watch AND control that front sight and focus it into the exact spot on the target that you want to hit. Proprioceptive reflex comes into play because whenever you fire a pistol quickly and correctly, and are hitting where you want on the target, there will be a natural balance between how high your muscles allow that front sight to lift, how long the front sight dwell time lasts, and how precisely you are able to return that sight to the same spot on the target from which it started. (It’s like a, ‘precisely controlled bounce’.)
When you do it, all, right one of the first things your (probably subconscious) mind will notice is that there’s actually a RHYTHM to the way you are firing; and the better you are able to, ‘plug yourself’ into that rhythm, the faster and more accurately you’re going to fire your pistol.
I once watched Jerry Miculek rapid fire his revolver at a series of targets. He riddled every one! At the end of the relay somebody asked him, ‘How do you do that?’ Jerry smiled, and replied, ‘This is a very competitive sport; and you need to appreciate that there are some things I just have to keep to myself.’ Well, ……… I’ve just told you what Jerry might have said.
Frankly I think you’re, ‘on to it’ now, and will be OK.
Here’s an exercise you might want to add to the others that you’re already practicing: It’s very simple; and, in my experience, can produce big rewards. At a reasonable distance (not to exceed 12 to 15 yards) pick a precise point on the target and, then, fire into it as quickly as possible. The goal is to keep the group as small as possible.
If your experience is typical I think you’ll discover that there are specific pistol shooting functions that your mind and body will handle, ‘by rote’; (Functions such as: properly gripping the gun, correctly pulling the trigger, locking your wrist, flexing your elbow, and controlling the tension and tightness in the tendons of your lower forearm) and other more abstract pistol shooting functions that your mind and proprioceptive reflexes (muscle memory) need to be more keenly aware of, and learn how to balance and interrelate - the one to the other.
What do I mean? I mean you’ve got to learn how to watch AND control that front sight and focus it into the exact spot on the target that you want to hit. Proprioceptive reflex comes into play because whenever you fire a pistol quickly and correctly, and are hitting where you want on the target, there will be a natural balance between how high your muscles allow that front sight to lift, how long the front sight dwell time lasts, and how precisely you are able to return that sight to the same spot on the target from which it started. (It’s like a, ‘precisely controlled bounce’.)
When you do it, all, right one of the first things your (probably subconscious) mind will notice is that there’s actually a RHYTHM to the way you are firing; and the better you are able to, ‘plug yourself’ into that rhythm, the faster and more accurately you’re going to fire your pistol.
I once watched Jerry Miculek rapid fire his revolver at a series of targets. He riddled every one! At the end of the relay somebody asked him, ‘How do you do that?’ Jerry smiled, and replied, ‘This is a very competitive sport; and you need to appreciate that there are some things I just have to keep to myself.’ Well, ……… I’ve just told you what Jerry might have said.
Frankly I think you’re, ‘on to it’ now, and will be OK.
mikemyers said:
Well, it's a very perishable skill, so I don't have much confidence that I could just pick up my gun right now and pull it off.
I get your point, though. Unfortunately, I can't tell you if your 28 is smooth enough for this. A factory action that's smooth enough for this is quite rare, and you'd have a hard time finding a 'smith who'd get it this smooth. Fortunately, though, an action this smooth is really icing on the cake. I have other revolvers that aren't this smooth and I do quite well on the range with them regardless.
You can spend a lot of time & angst looking for trigger perfection, but for all practical purposes, a good-to-very-good trigger is "all" that's needed for the great majority of applications. I suspect the trigger on your 28 is in this class. Once you have an adequate trigger, your time's best spent working on your fundamentals and your mental game.
BTW, you started the thread asking about hand (rather than trigger finger) control, though, so even if your action isn't smooth enough for a complete nickel-on-edge drill, just try getting and holding a nickel balanced on the barrel rib with your weak arm at your side. This is do-able no matter the quality of the action, and will teach you a lot about relaxation.
your hand(s) have to move to pull the trigger. the goal is to have the sights lined up on your target when the bullet leaves the barrel every time you pull the trigger. this goal is the same regardless of venue. if the sights bounce around during trigger pull, so be it. just so long as they are lined up correctly when that bullet leaves the barrel.
there are a lot of different methods offered here, and other places, to accomplish this goal. you should pick one that best fits you venue and physical and mental capabilities.
just my opinion.
murf
there are a lot of different methods offered here, and other places, to accomplish this goal. you should pick one that best fits you venue and physical and mental capabilities.
just my opinion.
murf
Potatohead
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LOL!Trick? Sleight of hand? ehh...'fraid not. WYSIWYG
You do have a good memory, though. From the thread you linked to earlier:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8978792&postcount=44
There it is! I didnt realize it was in that thread. Thanks
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