Giving the devil it's due, this NY Times editorial has a point

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alan

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Interrogating the Protesters

Published: August 17, 2004


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or several weeks, starting before the Democratic convention, F.B.I. officers have been questioning potential political demonstrators, and their friends and families, about their plans to protest at the two national conventions. These heavy-handed inquiries are intimidating, and they threaten to chill freedom of expression. They also appear to be a spectacularly poor use of limited law-enforcement resources. The F.B.I. should redirect its efforts to focus more directly on real threats.

Six investigators recently descended on Sarah Bardwell, a 21-year-old intern with a Denver antiwar group, who quite reasonably took away the message that the government was watching her closely. In Missouri, three men in their early 20's said they had been followed by federal investigators for days, then subpoenaed to appear before a grand jury. They ended up canceling their plans to show up for the Democratic and Republican conventions.

The F.B.I. is going forward with the blessing of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel - the same outfit that recently approved the use of torture against terrorism suspects. In the Justice Department's opinion, the chilling effect of the investigations is "quite minimal," and "substantially outweighed by the public interest in maintaining safety and order." But this analysis gets the balance wrong. When protesters are made to feel like criminal suspects, the chilling effect is potentially quite serious. And the chances of gaining any information that would be useful in stopping violence are quite small.

The knock on the door from government investigators asking about political activities is the stuff of totalitarian regimes. It is intimidating to be visited by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, particularly by investigators who warn that withholding information about anyone with plans to create a disruption is a crime.

And few people would want the F.B.I. to cross-examine their friends and family about them. If engaging in constitutionally protected speech means subjecting yourself to this kind of government monitoring, many Americans may decide - as the men from Missouri did - that the cost is too high.

Meanwhile, history suggests that the way to find out what potentially violent protesters are planning is not to send F.B.I. officers bearing questionnaires to the doorsteps of potential demonstrators. As became clear in the 1960's, F.B.I. monitoring of youthful dissenters is notoriously unreliable. The files that were created in the past often proved to be laughably inaccurate.

The F.B.I.'s questioning of protesters is part of a larger campaign against political dissent that has increased sharply since the start of the war on terror.

At the Democratic convention, protesters were sent to a depressing barbed-wire camp under the subway tracks. And at a recent Bush-Cheney campaign event, audience members were required to sign a pledge to support President Bush before they were admitted.

F.B.I. officials insist that the people they interview are free to "close the door in our faces," but by then the damage may already have been done. The government must not be allowed to turn a war against foreign enemies into a campaign against critics at home.
 
Also, those folks being interviewed by the FBI run the risk of committing a felony. Under 18 United States Code lying to, or trying in any way to deceive, a Federal agent during the course of an official investigation is a felony.

They have no business even talking with the FBI.
 
the same outfit that recently approved the use of torture against terrorism suspects.

My understanding was that DOJ analyzed whether some types of coercion were prohibited by US or international law. They concluded that they weren't, although actual torture remains illegal. If that understanding is correct, then the article is false on its face, and I question the veracity of pretty much everything else within it.
 
I'm somewhat skeptical about giving the NY Times it's "due" on this one. From what I've seen the FBI doesn't generally waste their time tailing people unless they have reasonable suspicions. If those people got called in front of a grand jury, it sounds like they had more than just suspicions.

There has been a lot of violence disguised as protests at conventions in the past. Do these people or the organizations they are part of have a history of being involved in violence?

As became clear in the 1960's, F.B.I. monitoring of youthful dissenters is notoriously unreliable. The files that were created in the past often proved to be laughably inaccurate.

So because they are young protestors, and the FBI back in the 60s did a bad job investigating protestors, these people should be left alone.

If the "protestors" aren't doing anything wrong, or the FBI doesn't have reason to suspect that they are planning something illegal, then they should be left alone.

This editorial seems pretty biased against the government, and the NYT is hardly a source I trust.
 
flatrock:

I also remain skeptical of The Gray Lady (NY Times), based on it's past performances.

I guess that I'm equally skeptical of The FBI, and for the same reasons.

Need one note that the original post was that of an editorial, an editorial being an expression of opinion.
 
"Interrogating the Protesters" ?

Even the opinion piece says potential protesters, but the Times can't get an accurate title.

But we know what they meant. Right? They're the Times.

John
 
Aren't all the protestors going to be in a "free speech zone" anyways? Why interview them? Just cordon them off, for their own safety, of course.
 
starting before the Democratic convention, F.B.I. officers have been questioning potential political demonstrators, and their friends and families, about their plans to protest at the two national conventions. These heavy-handed inquiries are intimidating, and they threaten to chill freedom of expression. They also appear to be a spectacularly poor use of limited law-enforcement resources. The F.B.I. should redirect its efforts to focus more directly on real threats.
It is a blatantly transparent way to send the message:

Big Brother is watching. Show up and you go to jail.

Exactly what I would expect from the administration that brought us the Patriot Act and a whole country full of rednecks who believe that anybody who disagrees with the president is a traitor and freedom of speech is only for those who agree with them.

At this point in time, the only real threat is John Kerry and the "focus" on the threat is to use any and all resources to stifle those who support him.
 
Where does Constitutionally protected speech end and inciting riots via mob activity begin? The purpose of some of these America hating leftists is to provoke a confrontation, achieve national attention, and point the finger of blame at the cops, and by proxy George Bush. It's not about "constitutionally protected speech". It's about a leftist political agenda.
 
bountyhunter, are you telling us that the protestors at the DemCon were unrestrained? The only restraint will be at the RepCon?

And, would you have us believe that there have been no threats by anybody to try to disrupt the RepCon?

If there have been threats, as I have read, would you then require that none of the law enforcement establishment do anything other than respond to complaints, after disruption occurs?

Is it a police-state type of action to prepare for known and verbalized threats?

Art
 
Also, those folks being interviewed by the FBI run the risk of committing a felony. Under 18 United States Code lying to, or trying in any way to deceive, a Federal agent during the course of an official investigation is a felony.

They have no business even talking with the FBI.

This is how they got Martha Stewart. The best thing to do when a Fed shows up is don't speak to him or tell him you want to speak to your lawyer first. The Fed can decide if you was lying or trying to deceive him, and it will be hard for you to prove you wasn't.

-Bill
 
If there have been threats, as I have read, would you then require that none of the law enforcement establishment do anything other than respond to complaints, after disruption occurs?

Point of order!

How come, when people threaten the administration, the police will proactively do something, but yet, when some individual threatens another with bodily harm, the police can't do anything because the threatener hasn't 'done anything'?

Haven't we all heard those stories? Used those experiences to point out the fallacy of victim disarmament?

Sounds kinda funny to me..

And, I would like to state, that the 'free speech zones' that are all of a sudden in vogue should send a chill down the spine of any and all Americans, whatever their political leanings.

TR
Sadly, I think we are to the point that I can say: ' I remember living in a free country..'
 
quote
And, I would like to state, that the 'free speech zones' that are all of a sudden in vogue should send a chill down the spine of any and all Americans, whatever their political leanings.

Respecting thinking individuals, I expect that they do just that.
 
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It's not about "constitutionally protected speech". It's about a leftist political agenda.

If Janet Reno was giving the orders to gun down cultists or sending the Feds in to arrest Cuban kids. the Times would be singing her praises...

I see the Times byline I skip over the story..too bad it once was the best...now I would be better off reading back issues of Pravda...


WildthetruthisrelativetothegrayladyAlaska
 
As much as I take with a grain of salt what the NY Times spews out, if this is true, it should alarm us. Because these are American citizens dealing with an intimidating element of government to the point of incarceration...for speaking.

Innocent until proven guilty, right? Guilty of what? We are not the enemy. Yet the innocent American people (gun owners especially) always recieve the excuse of "saftety" when brutality is exercised.

Its interesting how some here actually seem to support this. Me thinks things would be different if we were all being questioned, followed, investigated and intimidated for posting on this forum.

They have something to say. We have something to shoot. Do we all have to be thrown against the wall to figure this out? :rolleyes:
 
I strongly support people's right to free speech, even when I disagree with them.

However, sitting in the middle of roads to block traffic on busy streets isn't free speech.

Starting riots, looting stores, throwing rocks at store windows, and throwing rocks at police aren't examples of free speech.

You have the right to free speech, but if I don't want to listen to you, you don't have the right to block my car and force me to listen.

I have no respect for the violent thugs who are basically anarchists and just want to disrupt things.

If the FBI is intimidating people who are just wanting to speak their minds, then the FBI needs to back off. However, if those people associate with more violent and disruptive "protestors", then it's understandable the the FBI might need to investigate a bit.

I have friends and family with security clearances. I've been interviewed by the FBI many times about friends and people I work with, or even neighbors.

They do what they can to avoid being intimidating. Although when they show up at work and show their ID at the front desk and ask to talk to you it can cause a few strange looks. :)

The FBI has to walk a fine line between making sure they investigate real problems, and not interferring with the rights of law abiding citizens, even if those law abiding citizens vocally disagree with the government.

We simply don't have enough information to guage if the people mentioned in the editorial were being justifiably investigated, or being harassed.

I agree with approaching the actions of the FBI with some skepticism. They are a large government agency that often receives little oversight, which can lead to abuses of power.

However, there is definately an active group of "protestors" that show up and conventions and such places simply to disrupt things and stir up unrest through violence and vandalism. Groups which support such actions, and people who have engaged in such actions in the past also need to be viewed with appropriate skeptism.

If they intimidate some of those idiots with evidence that they are aware of their plans to have a violent or highly disruptive protest, and those idiots stay home, then I think they've done their jobs well.
 
As much as I take with a grain of salt what the NY Times spews out, if this is true, it should alarm us. Because these are American citizens dealing with an intimidating element of government to the point of incarceration...for speaking.

That's the real issue here. We don't know the truth of the situation. However, we do now that it was printed in the Times.

What does that tell us? Do you really think that if these were peaceful protestors who were just planning to go to the convention to speak their minds that the times would only have mention of the incident through an editorial with vague facts?

The government scaring off protestors that didn't have ties to violence would be a major news article to them. Do you really think they didn't investigate this themselves and found that these people's free speech was being trampled, but decided not to run a story on it?

When dealing with the Times, what's not in the paper often tells you as much or more than what's in the paper.
 
Nightwatch offered:

"Its interesting how some here actually seem to support this. Me thinks things would be different if we were all being questioned, followed, investigated and intimidated for posting on this forum."

We might come to that juncture also.
 
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