Don't worry, it's all for yoiur own good. It is, isn't it? Can't we trust the gov??

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alan

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F.B.I.'s Reach Into Records Is Set to Grow
By ERIC LICHTBLAU

Published: November 12, 2003


ASHINGTON, Nov. 11 — A little-noticed measure approved by both the House and Senate would significantly expand the F.B.I.'s power to demand financial records, without a judge's approval, from car dealers, travel agents, pawnbrokers and many other businesses, officials said on Tuesday.

Traditional financial institutions like banks and credit unions are frequently subject to administrative subpoenas from the Federal Bureau of Investigation to produce financial records in terrorism and espionage investigations. Such subpoenas, which are known as national security letters, do not require the bureau to seek a judge's approval before issuing them.

The measure now awaiting final approval in Congress would significantly broaden the law to include securities dealers, currency exchanges, car dealers, travel agencies, post offices, casinos, pawnbrokers and any other institution doing cash transactions with "a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax or regulatory matters."

Officials said the measure, which is tucked away in the intelligence community's authorization bill for 2004, gives agents greater flexibility and speed in seeking to trace the financial assets of people suspected of terrorism and espionage. It mirrors a proposal that President Bush outlined in a speech two months ago to expand the use of administrative subpoenas in terrorism cases.

Critics said the measure would give the federal government greater power to pry into people's private lives.

"This dramatically expands the government's authority to get private business records," said Timothy H. Edgar, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "You buy a ring for your grandmother from a pawnbroker, and the record on that will now be considered a financial record that the government can get."

The provision is in the authorization bills passed by both houses of Congress. Some Democrats have begun to question whether the measure goes too far and have hinted that they may try to have it pulled when the bill comes before a House-Senate conference committee. Other officials predicted that the measure would probably survive any challenges in conference and be signed into law by President Bush, in part because the provisions already approved in the House and the Senate are identical.

The intelligence committees considered the proposal at the request of George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, officials said. Officials at the C.I.A. and the Justice Department declined to comment on Tuesday about the measure.

A senior Congressional official who supports the provision said that "this is meant to provide agents with the same amount of flexibility in terrorism investigations that they have in other types of investigations."

"This was really just a technical change to reflect the new breed of financial institutions," the official added.

Asked what had prompted the measure, the official said: "This is coming from 3,000 dead people. There's an ever-expanding universe of places where terrorists can hide financial transactions, and it's only prudent and wise to anticipate where they might be and to give law enforcement the tools that they need to find them."

Christopher Wray, the Justice Department's assistant attorney general in charge of the criminal division, also addressed the issue last month at a Senate hearing.

Mr. Wray said that compared with the antiterrorism law that allowed agents to demand business records with court approval, the F.B.I.'s administrative subpoenas were more limited. The administrative subpoenas "do provide for production of some records," he said, but "they don't cover as many types of business records."




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Posters note: Another of those LITTLE NOTICED PASSAGES!! Why do the hairs on the back of my neck stand up at mention of this sort of thing?
 
Ah yes, Maxwell, check out this "alan"

it seems his hairs stand up when we come up with good ideas.

Heil Shrub
Heil Ashcroft

Mein guvvamit iss gutt!

All heil!

:barf:
 
"This is coming from 3,000 dead people..."

The erosion of freedom in this country in the last two years is a disgrace to their memory.

"do provide for production of some records," he said, but "they don't cover as many types of business records."

"It does allow us to shove a probe up your backside, but not far enough for it to reach your brain."
 
good point. the Federal government has vastly increased it's size, power and looting of our treasury since Bush was elected. The run up to the Iraq war helped seal up the House and Senate with a timely plane crash just tilting the power enough for one party rule.

Yet by and large these assualts on our freedoms and the giant sucking sound of our tax money being hoovered up are overshadowed. Are we tired of fighting from the Clinton years? Are we complacent because it is the GOP and not the left assualting us? Are we just happy that the GOP will leave the 2nd amendment alone and turn a blind eye to the desecration of the 4th and 5th amendments? Or are we just scared after 9/11 and following along like shhep while the elitests consolidate their power?


I saw today the even though the House and Senate voted for it, an anyomous GOP'er stripped a provision from the transportation bill that would have allowed Americans the freedom to travel anywhere in the world, specifically a small island off Florida. But corporate interests were miollified by a seperate bill allowing them to increase trade in agricultural products. Cuban emigrants in the US are allowed to travel there and increase the amount of money they can send. The Feds upped the amount of products that legislators can legally bring back from trips to Cuba. But you and I are banned by threat of jail and fines if we attempt to travel freely.



The fox is guarding the henhouse and the farmer left town.
 
The GOP hasn't done anything for the second ammendment either.

Rather than declaring that "All citizens need to be armed and trained to defend their country from terrorists in their towns" after 9/11, Bush has dont nothing to protect us.... hell, by sending off most of our military, we're not very well defended if someone did try to invade us, and if there was a serious terrorist uprising, we'd have no way to respond to it.

Its all about power. 9/11 may be our reichstag fire.
 
If pilots were armed 9/11 would not have happened. At least not with airplanes.

If passengers could have been armed it would not have happened due to it causing a shoot out, and the passengers winning with a few loses. The terrorists would know that and go for an easier less appealing and less catastrophic target.
 
Arming the citizenry would not have prevented 9-11

Box cutters verses a gun is no contest? You must be thinking that if we have guns they have guns? Even so there would be an excellent probability of preventing the WTC collapse. That was 9-11 wasn't it?

Personally I wouldn't even have to see a stewardess get her throat cut before intervening. Guess some of us are ludicrous :D
 
No conspiracy here folks, move along. Nothing to see here. If you're not a terrorist then you have nothing to hide anyway, right subj err citizen?

And if you resist, then they make you the criminal.

:rolleyes:
 
Up until 9-11, no one had ever used a commercial airplane as a a suicide missile.

If some of the passengers had been armed, they would have all assumed they were just being hijacked for political purposes, and would have kept their guns in their holsters till it was too late.
 
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