Global warming---no gun relavence

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ravinraven

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Well, there is some gun relavence in that guns will be the items that correct the situation. No, mods, I am not for killing--------------yet!

There is a site called www.junkscience.com. Visit it and in the last 3 or 4 days you will find an article titled "What is the 'Hockey Stick' Debate All About." This article exposes the fraud that developed the global temperature chart that showed that the most warming that occurred in the last 1000 years occurred in the last 30 years. I think that this last 30 years thing was used to brow beat lesser strong governments into signing the Kyoto suicide pact.

Read it and see what you think. I think that this UN sponsored fraud makes the oil-for-food scandal look like a bunch of lazy panhandlers on a bad day,.

rr
 
Actually, you could make the case that it is civil-liberty related, as the Kyoto supporters' solution to global warming is strictly conservation of avialable resources, not necessarily replacement energy sources (nuclear). This conservation mentality goes hand in hand with "well, you HAVE to stop doing <X> to save the environment".

A lot of what they insert into <X> involves guns.
 
Check out Crichton's latest novel--and the incredible number of footnotes supporting his claims--and also "The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn ??? (sorry).

The problem is that the political efforts by those who'd blame homo sap for globular worming, if successful, would lead to incredible increases in governmental controls of all sorts. The weirdlies of the WOD and the WOT would pale to insignificance by comparison.

Odds are, in order to maintain quiesence in the envisioned police state, personal firearms would be increasingly under attack by the antis. (It wouldn't be called a police state, of course.)

Art
 
Global warming or not, pollution control to me is an important issue. However, there is always an equilibrium that needs to be achieved. That Michael Crichton book is "State of Fear", I bought it 4 months ago and haven't read more than 30 pages :banghead: Like most MC book's it should be excellent, once i get some free time to read it that is.
 
There's tons of reasons to end the insanity. Grab a book titled The Hole in the Ozone Scare. Politics has gotten too far into science, you can't trust much anymore. :fire:
 
I didn't no...

...wolffs kud spel!

"No relevance to spelling, either."

hehheh

I've read "State of Fear." In fact, reading the article made me feel that I was still reading that great book.

Yes. It's important to keep the environment safe. These wackos give all enviomenalism a bad name. One wonders that if the people ever catch on to the game, there'll be a back lash that will actually harm the environment.

This global warming thing is an attempt by mere man to change the world's weather by manipulating the tiny fraction of greenhouse gasses that he puts out. This is right up there with tossing virgins into craters to stop a volcano from belching.

rr
 
My dad sent me State of Fear for my birthday but I just finished EF&D and am now reading UC so this new one will have to wait. Hope it's good.

Greg
 
I spent four years as an engineer in the middle of a bunch of environmental protection work. I brain-picked like mad on the guys who had PhDs in Bugs'n'Bunnies. I like to think I learned quite a bit.

What stands out is that factual science is sufficient to deal with hazards to the environment in general. The political will is entirely another matter.

Junk science + extremism = calls for statist solutions, as Standing Wolf inferred. I note that the various extremist groups are, by and large, opposed to the viewpoints of those of us involved in shooting and hunting. Sierra, Greenpeace, et al.

Digressing a bit, I prefer the term "statist" to worrying about what modern American liberals propose, as "liberals". Anybody who proposes governmental solutions as a first choice is, to me, statist. I don't care if they're Liberal or NeoCon or whatever. Again, this group seems most opposed to personal sovereignty and such endeavors as personal self-defense. The extremist enviros are well-entrenched in this philosophy...

Art
 
The environmentalist template of overstating health hazards has already been used with disturbing effectiveness. Lead hazard at indoor ranges, anyone? Breathing lead isn't high on anybody’s list of healthy stuff to do, but overstatement of the risk and degree of exposure has already been used to attack some indoor ranges. I suspect there’s plenty of relevance to guns. The mods might agree – I note the thread still lives.

I like the junkscience.com site a lot: it plays well to my personal prejudices. That being said, I'd caution against getting one's knickers in too much of a twist over anything Steve Milloy says about global warming. He’s an adjunct scholar at Cato and can be expected to spin about as hard in a free market direction as the Union of Concerned Scientists can be expected to spin in a socialist direction. Actually, UCS is more "statist" - Thanks Art - "statist" is a much more descriptive term.

IMHO, it’s dang near impossible to find any science that hasn’t been shanghaied and perverted to push a political agenda.

As example, these are some remarks from an individual who wrote a paper on climate forcings that didn’t support the "hockey stick":

I wrote a letter to Nature, but they edited my letter so as to change its meaning. It made me realize that they had an editorial position on the matter. That is their right, but they should have published the article discussing our paper on the editorial page, not under a "News" banner.
Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS). The UCS leadership sent to its members an "Information Update" discussing our paper. The essence of the update seems to be that our paper is controversial, potentially harmful to the Kyoto Protocol, and not a helpful contribution to the climate change discussion as it "may fuel confusion about global warming among the public". They describe "first reactions from within the scientific community", which perhaps are accurate but they seem a bit like commissioned criticisms.
Apparently the UCS leadership did not read our paper, or did not understand it.
The surprise in all this is that the above was not written by Steve Milloy - those are the remarks of Dr. James Hansen noting the media spin on his paper back in 2000. Mr. Hansen, the bogeyman. Mr. global warming alarmist himself.

It seems the paper had enough concerns about climate forcings that JunkScience cheerfully roasts the man but not enough to keep the UCS from consigning him to the stocks and pillory. Each side finds what they like and condemns the parts they don't like. This leaves, as the only casualty, science laying dead in the street.

Full text with links to the original paper and research available at NASA-GISS

OTOH, Milloy's work on heath related scares, overstatements and outright fraud are generally mirrored at http://www.stats.org which lacks the bombast of junkscience.com and is a bit more "centered". Makes for a better citation should one find oneself surrounded by hostile statists (only happens to me at my high school reunions ;) ) They both name the banning of DDT as the most bone-headed policy manuver of the 20th century, but stats is less over the top about it.

Regrettably, climatology and paleoclimatology together don't offer any insights that could reasonably lead one to believe anything with any degree of certainty. To be as certain of a position as the UCS is requires an "ideology to science ratio" of at least 9:1

Yes, the hockey stick is suspect - view it in the same light as "13 children a day".

IMHO :)
 
According to the proponents of this, we should already be underwater based on their earlier predictions.

What I'm worried about is the impending ice age these wack jobs were warning of 10 years before global warming became a better cause.
 
I have 2 questions for the 'Global Warmest.'

1) What did man do to cause the last Ice Age?

2) What did man do to end the last Ice Age?

When they answer those 2 questions, fully and explicitly, I may think about listening to them.
 
Daemon688 said:
Global warming or not, pollution control to me is an important issue.…

Bingo!

Now, what the global-warming alarmists fail to remember is that we are smack dab in the middle of an interglacial cycle. It should be getting warmer, the “Little Ice Age†of the 14th–19th centuries A.D. notwithstanding. We probably have about 10,000 years to go before we reach the next long-term cooling period.

Here’s a little history. About 15,000 years ago, the Pleistocene glaciers were melting, inundating temperate, low-lying areas such as the Sunda Peninsula. (Ever hear of the Great Flood?) About 5,000 years ago, the Sahara was a verdant savanna. Similarly, southwestern North America was much less arid around 1,000 years ago, supporting large urban settlements.

Climatic change is an ongoing process, independent of human intervention. Its effects on our civilization can be profound, as in the examples above. We can barely predict next week’s weather, so it is rather arrogant to assume that we know enough about how much human activities can affect this process to make educated decisions on controlling it.

~G. Fink
 
If Liberals cared about the environment Robert Redford wouldn't have bulldozed an entire mountain top to build his Sundance mess. John Eff'n Kerry wouldn't have a private jet, seven SUV's and six mansions. But they don't care about the environment. They fought nuclear power and oil exploration to help put us where we are in the Middle East. They oppose wind turbines in Nantucket Sound.

Buying and selling carbon emissions, subverting sovereignty by the UN for Kyoto compliance: it is all about control. Governmental control, global control, is what the Greenies have in mind. It passes a fair resemblance to Communism.
 
i jsut dont get you guys at all.

there is no such thing as pollution to some of you it seems,

i guess we should be more like China= or did any of you catch the article on 30 000 rioters who just cant take the poison any more?

i know , there are many envir. regs with alterior motives, and some are sensless- but get real guys.

the mountain of garbage piling up, the brown air, the water that needs ever more purifying on its way to the tap- what will it take for you to realize something has to change a little?

does MTBE have tp flow straight out of your tap? only if Your kid gets cancer?


i even saw one post recently complaining about having to recycle.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?

it must be nice to live in a tiny little speck of a world, not knowing anything outside your bubble.
 
Quick Quiz:

Who killed more people?

1. Adolph Hitler
2. Saddam Hussein
3. Rachel Carlson?


The answer is C. Rachel Carlson

Who is Rachel Carlson you say?

She wrote a 'junk-science' book back in the late 60's called "Silent Spring" which blamed the pesticide DDT from everything from birth defects to the hole in the ozone layer (sarcasm). The book was not based on any hard science and was later refuted by scientists. The damage was already done however, when the U.S. and other countries decided to ban DDT.

DDT was, and still is the most effective killer or mosquitos, those little critters who carry malaria.

At one time, with DDT in use, malaria was all but eradicated in North America and was being held in check in other countries.

With the global ban on DDT, malaria rates in Africa and Asia have skyrocketed and it is once again making an appearance in the U. S. and Canada
 
There is a huge differnece between being anti-environment, and anti-environmentalist.

I have no problem with punishing people who do demonstrable and quantifiable dmage to specific areas (assuming that we are talking about someone elses land) or people..

What I have a massive problem with is sweeping and damaging legislation based on some wacky greenie's fear. 99% of their claims are lacking data or downright contrary to available data. And then people say I like pollution because I don't want to hamstring the economy, and violate everyone's rights, based on junk science.
 
i jsut dont get you guys at all.

there is no such thing as pollution to some of you it seems,

i guess we should be more like China= or did any of you catch the article on 30 000 rioters who just cant take the poison any more?

i know , there are many envir. regs with alterior motives, and some are sensless- but get real guys.

the mountain of garbage piling up, the brown air, the water that needs ever more purifying on its way to the tap- what will it take for you to realize something has to change a little?

does MTBE have tp flow straight out of your tap? only if Your kid gets cancer?


i even saw one post recently complaining about having to recycle.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?

it must be nice to live in a tiny little speck of a world, not knowing anything outside your bubble.

Speaking of bubbles:

Did you know that the air quality in most of the U. S. is better now than it has been in decades? Or that there is actually more forest land in the U. S. than there was when the Pilgrims landed here.?

The mantra now is "Global Warming" Did you know that back in the 60's there were dire predictions that by the new millenium, we would be in the middle of a new Ice Age?

I'm certainly not for the wholsale destruction of the environment, but let's base our conclusions on science and not on emotions.
 
Yeah, junk science is the science that doesn't fit what you want to hear. Like "The jury is still out on Global Warming" but it's the same jury that was out on the harmful effects of smoking. :rolleyes:
 
::ahem::

Carbon dioxide and water vapor are not pollutants.

Pollution and global warming are separate issues.

Nevertheless, environmental extremism has, regrettably, killed far more people than pollution. The DDT scam numbers are horrifying. Incidentally, the main charge being made in "Silent Spring" was that bird egg shells were getting thin.

Conservatives and independents like the environment just fine, but some can remember being railroaded into believing hokum. Everybody played together nicely when the problem was real. Take a look at the crud that hung over our cities 30 years ago. We don't get many rivers catching on fire anymore either.

Real progress has been made. More progress will be made. But misleading statements have been made before to advance an agenda and that won't change. We need to learn the difference.

Bird eggs vs. malaria? Some bargains weren't worth it:
big.jpg
 
it must be nice to live in a tiny little speck of a world, not knowing anything outside your bubble.
This from a guy in Berkeley...sometimes the jokes just write themselves... ;) Post even has the stereotypical bad spelling, incomprehensible grammer and lack of punctuation all capped off with the obligatory rude, elitist and dismissive derogatory backhand. You go girl.
...but it's the same jury that was out on the harmful effects of smoking.
...congratulations, you are hereby awarded first prize for this thread in the Non-Sequitur Olympics.

- Gabe
 
but it's the same jury that was out on the harmful effects of smoking

Wow! That is exactly what I used to think. (really). If you've got some time, dive into the research. If you can find a conclusion you're comfortable with, you're a better man than I. I only got confused.

Media spin as reported by the man himself - no friend of junkscience.com, I assure you.
Goddard Instutute for Space Studies
 
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