Going for an AK. Let us debate the merits and disadvantages of 5.45x39 and 7.62x39

[M1key]

The Russians have changed the original 5.45 bullet (5N7) a few times in order to make it a better penetrator. This resulted in the 7N6, 7N10, 7N22 and 7N24 cartridge 5.45×39mm variants.

Unfortunately the 7N6 is the only military spec round we can get.

FWIW, I use the commercially loaded Hornady Vmax and Silver Bear for HD.


M

 

[henschman]

Does any of this stuff ever get imported into the 'States? All those mentioned except possibly the last one wouldn't fall foul of the '86 LEOPA since the core contains some lead as well as penetrator (the same reason that M856 is not considered a banned "armor piercing" round). Also there is the issue that this law shouldn't apply to this round at all, since 5.45 is less than .22 caliber (it is .21 actually).

 

[dfariswheel]

Most of the later Soviet 5.45 ammo has an armor piercing core, and as armor piercing it's not importable.

The 5.45 7N6-PS core is blunt ended and made of mild steel.
Armor piercing ammo has a core that's made of very hard steel or something like tungsten, and is very sharply pointed.
Since the core of the 7N6-PS is blunt mild steel, it's not considered to be armor piercing.

Here's a 7N6-PS I sectioned with my jeweler's saw.
Note the blunt core, the lead cap on top and the hollow cavity in the nose.
The steel core is surrounded by an extremely thin layer of lead between it and the outer jacket.

 

[Adam123]

So, who ended up winning the drywall argument?

 

[meanmrmustard]

So, who ended up winning the drywall argument?

Everyone did. Because until someone decides to test out certain rounds in each caliber to prove the other wrong or right, I'm sure some folks won't use 545 for Hd, some still will.

Me, I wouldn't use a rifle for HD anyway. But, if I did, I'd have no qualms with a 545 loaded with frangibles. Mileage HAS varied.

 

[M1key]

Here's a 7N6-PS I sectioned with my jeweler's saw.
Note the blunt core, the lead cap on top and the hollow cavity in the nose.
The steel core is surrounded by an extremely thin layer of lead between it and the outer jacket.

so you're the source of that picture...cool

Here's another I found somewhere:

7N6_60fmj_60fmj_70fmj_55hp

M

 

[Okiegunner]

Correct me if I am wrong. It was stated that the 5.45 tumbles upon impact. I believe that due to the air pocket in the bullet, that it "yaws" and "pitches" upon impact.

As the bullet spins, yaws, and pitches thru soft tissue: it creates a much longer wound channel through the body than if it simply began to tumble.

 

[M1key]

Russians saw what the 5.56 round did in Viet Nam and erroneously concluded the primary wounding mechanism was tumbling. So they set about to design a light-weight small caliber fmj bullet that tumbles agressively, too.

In theory, the lead inner core of the 5.45 shifts forward on impact, destabilizes the bullet, causing it to begin to tumble earlier, more often, and possibly diverging inside the target leaving a bigger wound channel. Whether or not it worked that way reliably in combat was subject to debate. I guess we'll have to ask the Mujahideen.

Friends who use the 7n6 to hunt coyotes report excellent results with nasty wounds.

As far as accuracy, my first unconverted 5.45 Saiga would group five Silver Bear and even Bulgarian WASP into 1.5 MOA or less with the aid of a side-rail mounted 4x scope. Too bad I sold it before I learned to do the PG conversion.

Since then I have converted two 5.45 Saigas. One is the 20-inch heavy barrel Target model and the other has a 16 inch barrel. They both shoot closer to 1.8-2 MOA for five shots and can consistently spank a 6x6 inch plate at 200 yds.

The only carbines I own in 7.62 that can do that are my Colt HBAR and Ruger Mini-30 Tactical. None of my AKs have been able to...yet.

M

 

[jason41987]

Most of the later Soviet 5.45 ammo has an armor piercing core, and as armor piercing it's not importable.

The 5.45 7N6-PS core is blunt ended and made of mild steel.
Armor piercing ammo has a core that's made of very hard steel or something like tungsten, and is very sharply pointed.
Since the core of the 7N6-PS is blunt mild steel, it's not considered to be armor piercing.

Here's a 7N6-PS I sectioned with my jeweler's saw.
Note the blunt core, the lead cap on top and the hollow cavity in the nose.
The steel core is surrounded by an extremely thin layer of lead between it and the outer jacket.

i really love the route the russians went with these bullet designs... fully aware that assault rifle cartridge lacked the sheer power to use hydrostatic shock, and also lacked the bullet weight and diameter to mushroom out like a JHP from a pistol.... so they designed that nose to crush on impact sending the bullet into an end over end tumble

if i had to get shot by an AK, id rather get shot by an old AK-47 than with one of these bullets

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Again, for those of you who missed it, the whole air pocket in the nose to induce tumbling was used in the 7.62x39 before the 5.45x39. The Yugoslavian M67 ball round featured a flat based 123 gr FMJ bullet with an air pocket in the nose to induce tumbling, typically within the first 5" of penetration through tissue. This surplus Yugo ammo is currently available in bulk and is a pretty good deal. You just have to remember it is corrosively primed.
If you don't want to deal with corrosive primers, some of the steel cased Russian stuff imported into this country is similarly designed. Here's a sectioned 122 gr FMJ black box Wolf round:



All you guys that say you'd rather be shot by the 7.62mm than the 5.45mm, even as a strictly theoritical exercise, are freaking crazy.

Here Fackler describes the differences between the older M43 pattern bullet, the newer M67 pattern bullet, and the 5.45mm bullet. The M67 and the 5.45mm round perform similarly in tissue. The 5.45 shoots flatter, the 7.62 penetrates cover better.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf

 

[henschman]

Most of the later Soviet 5.45 ammo has an armor piercing core, and as armor piercing it's not importable.

The presence of an armor piercing core is not what makes bullets unimportable... the law in question only bans from further importation or production for the civilian market handgun bullets with a core made ENTIRELY from a laundry-list of non-lead metals including steel, tungsten, copper, etc., or with a jacket comprising more than 25% of the bullet's weight. It does not ban ammo that has at least some lead in the core, as well as penetrator. Here is a good rundown of the federal law on armor piercing bullets: http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Everyone did. Because until someone decides to test out certain rounds in each caliber to prove the other wrong or right, I'm sure some folks won't use 545 for Hd, some still will.

I've decided that 5.45 Hornady V-Max is the way to go for me.

Here is high speed footage of 5.45 7n6 on Ballistic gel. It seems to largely stabilize the tumbling and fly sideways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3ZEZ7YFw&feature=p­layer_embedded

 

[meanmrmustard]

I've decided that 5.45 Hornady V-Max is the way to go for me.

Here is high speed footage of 5.45 7n6 on Ballistic gel. It seems to largely stabilize the tumbling and fly sideways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3ZEZ7YFw&feature=p­layer_embedded

Good choice. That'd be what I'd use too. Thanks for the link, neat vid.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Another reason why I prefer the V-Max over 7n6 is because I don't want a rusty gun when I get it back from the Police after having to use it for HD.

 

[Inebriated]

^Do you happen to know of any good tests with V-MAX loads in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39? Been trying to find some myself.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Again, for those of you who missed it, the whole air pocket in the nose to induce tumbling was used in the 7.62x39 before the 5.45x39. The Yugoslavian M67 ball round featured a flat based 123 gr FMJ bullet with an air pocket in the nose to induce tumbling, typically within the first 5" of penetration through tissue. This surplus Yugo ammo is currently available in bulk and is a pretty good deal. You just have to remember it is corrosively primed.
If you don't want to deal with corrosive primers, some of the steel cased Russian stuff imported into this country is similarly designed. Here's a sectioned 122 gr FMJ black box Wolf round:



All you guys that say you'd rather be shot by the 7.62mm than the 5.45mm, even as a strictly theoritical exercise, are freaking crazy.

Here Fackler describes the differences between the older M43 pattern bullet, the newer M67 pattern bullet, and the 5.45mm bullet. The M67 and the 5.45mm round perform similarly in tissue. The 5.45 shoots flatter, the 7.62 penetrates cover better.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf

I'd rather not be shot at all. But, when folks say that about a bullet, they're basically saying that there are other cartridges they would stand in front of rather than another. Would you rather be shot in the leg with a 22 LR hollow point, or a 7.62x39 ballistic tip? Be honest

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

I'd rather not be shot at all. But, when folks say that about a bullet, they're basically saying that there are other cartridges they would stand in front of rather than another. Would you rather be shot in the leg with a 22 LR hollow point, or a 7.62x39 ballistic tip? Be honest

I'd rather take a 7.62x39 to the knee than an arrow, truth be told.

 

[Mobuck]

I don't know what kind/type of 5.45 ammo you're shooting but the common 5.45 fmj steel case I've been using is causes much more damage to steel targets than 223 fmj. Fragmenting on wall board and studs???????? The stuff I'm shooting goes through 1/4" common steel plate like a cobalt drill bit and makes a heck of a dent in 3/8" of same.
I shot some Silver Bear 55 grain soft point into the same wet newsprint that I use for other calibers when testing bullets. It gave penetration similar to 243 Win 100 grain SP but expansion was inconsistent. I'd never recommend hunting with that type ammo for that reason.

 

[M1key]

I shot some Silver Bear 55 grain soft point into the same wet newsprint that I use for other calibers when testing bullets. It gave penetration similar to 243 Win 100 grain SP but expansion was inconsistent. I'd never recommend hunting with that type ammo for that reason.

Thanks. That is the info I was looking for in another thread...

M

 

[meanmrmustard]

I'd rather take a 7.62x39 to the knee than an arrow, truth be told.

I'd take ANY bullet over an arrow in ANY spot! Especially if we are talking broad heads.