Goodbye Kel-Tec, Hello Bersa?

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ZeSpectre

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As you may remember from an earlier rant my P-3AT just went haywire on me. Well I seem to have fixed it (for now) but after THREE failure mode go-rounds any confidence I had in it as a CCW or BUG is gone, gone, GONE!

I still want a deep concealment "gnome gun" (I consider .380 auto a step above the "mouse gun" category) and the Bersa "Thunder .380 Concealed Carry" model has caught my eye.

Jeff Quinn wrote a glowing review on "Gunblast" and I've read several other positive reviews. My only problem is nobody locally has one on the shelves so I'd have to order (i.e. I don't get to fondle..urm handle it in advance) so if anyone has the "concealed carry" model (not the regular Thunder .380) I'd love to hear what you think of it.

Thanks
Ze
 
I have no experience with the pistol you're asking about, but have you considered a Guardian from NAA? A bit hard to find these days, but worth it.
 
Bersa

Have you checked out the BERSA Talk Forum?

Michael T is the straw boss/moderator. There are many folk with the CC you could query, or run a search.

When I tried both from a handling and ergonomic standpoint I found the CC uncomfortable compared to the BT.
You really need to heft, fondle and handle one prior to buying.

I purchased the BT 380 and have over 750 flawless rounds through it.
Personal preference.

I have found that anything over 16 ounces is too heavy for pocket carry. The CC is 23. Find 23 ounces of something and carry it around and see what you think.

http://bersatalk.com/default.aspx
 
The Bersa is a great gun, but the KelTec is a whole lot smaller and lighter. You are trying to compare apples and eggplants.
 
A P3AT is still on the front burner for me, will purchase soon. I have an old Grendel P12 that shoots fine, 100 percent, though it's not the most accurate gun I own by a stretch. It's probably as accurate as a P3AT, though. I can hit a pie plate at 25 off hand easily with it, just I prefer something a little more accurate, but hey, IT'S A POCKET GUN! LOL But, it's nearly as big as my P11 in 9mm, though it is a couple of ounces lighter. It does hold 12 rounds, though. I've not put more'n about 2K rounds through the thing, but it's reliable and I have two mags for it, but it ain't 9 ounces and TINY as a P3AT! That's why I want a P3AT in my collection, certainly not the caliber.

Bare in mind, too, I'm talking primary gun here, ONLY gun. I don't walk around with 40 ounce guns IWB. I carry, but it must be in a pocket or it won't get carried. I do use thunderwear quite a bit. But, my P11 is 3.5" accurate at 25 yards and 100 percent reliable with +P 9mm. I've never considered a gun the size of a Bersa or PPK for carry, frankly, and it's way big and heavy for backup IMHO. BUT, I do hear good things about 'em. Frankly, though, if I were going to get a gun that big, might as well get a Makarov and have something a little different. :D The Maks are reliable, accurate, a little more gun that a .380, though there's not a lot of load choice. They are WAY big for back up, though. A PF9 or P11 or one of the little Kahrs in 9mm would be superior to ANY .380 and are small enough for the back up roll, smaller than a Bersa anyway. Or, if you have a grand to spend, I hear the Rohrbaughs are nice. Then again, you could get a Smith 640 for $350 and be lighter if not smaller than a Bersa and I bet it wouldn't FTF or FTE either. :D
 
The Bersa is a great gun, but the KelTec is a whole lot smaller and lighter. You are trying to compare apples and eggplants.
Click to expand...

I didn't ask for a comparison, I already know the differences "on paper". What I want is feedback from anyone who owns a Bersa.

(EDIT- Sorry if I sound grumpy, the P-3AT has been a serious disappointment after such a nice start so I'm really annoyed).
 
The CC is proving to be as relieable as the Thunder Some people don't like the sights but a KT owner should have no trouble. I like the feel of the CC except like a KT you have a finger left hanging.A Thunder finger rest will fix that and really no lost in concealabilty. Just like the fingerrest add on used on KT's
Dealer I use. Got a new Matt finish CC in Tue asking $ 250 .
Really should try to handle on. I have slipped in pocket and belive will carry their very nice.
http://bersatalk.com
http://ubgholsters.com for you Bersa holsters or other makes. Well made at a liveable price.
 
Just to fill in more info. I've received quite a few PM from people who didn't want to start any "flame wars" so I'll summarize here.

The T380CC has an issue with the 7 round T380 mags. If you use it's 8 rounders they seem to work fine.

Many don't like the grip on the T380CC and the Hogue handalls don't seem to help much

Several consider the T380CC to be too heavy for a pocket gun.

And a host saying you can't compare a T380CC to a Kel-Tec....which I'm NOT doing, I'm trying to switch to something different as I'm very soured on the Kel-Tec right at the moment.

It would seem that the majority of folks are telling me to just get a regular T380 and not fool with the T380CC version.
 
Kel Tec 32 acp

I don't like the Kel Tec 380 and have heard many, many, many bad stories about them. I have a Kel Tec 32 and LOVE IT, I run Fiocchi fmj ammo in it and at the self defense distance am very confident that I will stop my attacker. You should perhaps give the 32 Kel Tec a try, it's a lot different than shooting the 380 version.

Good luck in your search.
 
100_5268.gif

NAA Guardians are excellent little mouseguns, and can be purchased "used" very reasonably. I think the reliability of the Guardian is light years better than the KT's.. (I have both by the way).

Just another option.

J.Pomeroy
 
I can safely say that the two most popular BUGS and CC guns that my students use for ccw are the KelTec P3AT and the Bersa Thunder 380. I can also tell you that for longevity , the Bersa wins the day everytime. I have students come give me feedback after 6 months of prolonged range use and the Bersa wins the day by a mile when it comes to reliability and shootability.
Granted, the Kel Tecs were never designed to be plinkers and they obviously offer an advantage in size and weight, but I subscribe to the theory that to have an effective CCW weapon, you have to become proficient with it, and that means beating the hell out of it at the range. Durability and reliability over time are key. Bersa satisfied that requirement VERY WELL, Kel Tec DOES NOT. Obviously there are exceptions, but if I had to trust my life to one, I 'd pick Bersa everytime. No !, Bersa has not paid me for this message. ,but yes, I'm sold on Bersa everytime. If it sounds like one of their flyers, it could very well be, I would be happy to write a testament for them free of charge. I love their products, my only gripe is the cost of the factory mags, but some of the Promag aftermarket mags are ok for 1/2 the cost.
 
but I subscribe to the theory that to have an effective CCW weapon, you have to become proficient with it
Click to expand...

To be effective a CCW has to be with you when you need it, but you'll never know when or if you will need it! Even if your Kel-Tec only gives a single shot and jams its a lot better than nothing!

I usually carry my Kahr PM40 or S&W SC360, but sometimes the P3AT is all I can manage. Should the P3AT or any mouse gun be your first choice? IMHO not no but hell no!

--wally.
 
I've done 'em all and vote for Bersa no reservations

1. Better ergonomics: Small, but not too small. Though a bit larger than your P3at, I think you will find the increased grip size and those few extra ounces of weight a positive thing.

2. Better controlability/faster follow up shots. I use Cor Bon +p almost exclusively in my guns simply because it is consistently very good quality and tops the stopping power charts. The downside is recoil. Try shooting CB 90 grain +P out of a Kel Tec and then the Bersa. I bet you will find a huge difference in your shot to shot times and you will have a lot more fun shooting your Bersa .380 as you will with the KT. To me, the recoil feels significantly less in the Bersa.

3. Better reliability: Again, Kel Tecs are fine for what they are. But I stopped using them once I discovered how much better he Bersas were.

3. Greater capacity. The KT hold 6+1
The Bersa Holds 8+1
4. Better price

Overall, I think the Bersa is a good gun and an excellent value.

Shooter429
 
Hey Spectre,

Have you looked at either the PA-63 or the double stack CZ-82? They come in 9x18 Mak which is slightly more powerful than the 380 and cheaper. I think both are California legal as well. They're DA/SA, PA-63 is 7+1, CZ-82 is 12+1, ambi safety/mag release, and the PA-63 has a hammer drop (CZ-82 doesn't).

Basically, they're the same as the Bersa, but cheaper, in a slightly more powerful caliber with cheaper ammo.

PA-63:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Hungarian_PA63_9x18Mak_Pistol.html

CZ-82:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Czech_CZ-82_9x18_Pistol.html

Ammo:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/9X18_Makarov.html

I've got a CZ-82 (not from AIM) and it's very accurate (well, more accurate than me).

Thanks.
 
I think people are mostly taking issue with your statement

I still want a deep concealment "gnome gun"
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A Bersa Thunder 380, CC or otherwise, is hardly what I'd call a "deep concealment" piece. The specs compare rather unfavorably to subcompact 9mms, which would have the benefit of being powerful enough to serve as a primary carry. Heck, Bersa's own Thunder 9 Ultra Compact is smaller than a regular Thunder 380, and holds more shots to boot!
 
Forgive me for "butting in" as i have only the Thunder, but allow me to say that I have seldom found such quality in an inexpensive puchase as I have with this pistol. I am sure that the "Carry" will fit your needs well!
 
ZeSpectre,

No Personal Experience with Bersa, or Kel-Tec 32, 3AT.

I was one asked to do T&E on Kel-Tec P-11s many years ago and this is the only polymer gun I own, and use for a niche gun for my what I have to do and where my activities take me.
I doubt seriously, I will ever own another Polymer gun of any type.
MY BUG, is still a Beretta Jetfire, and NAA Mini-Revolver [.22lr, 1 1/8" bbl]
Just MY environment and tasks mind you.

NAA Guardian is being tested by a Gun Smith buddy and some close friends of his, like I have tested some guns.

These are serious persons, and I trust their take, and they mine.
They will not carry a gun, they cannot shoot often, and have quality practice with.

Bersa, and I forget which model gave good reviews and was used.

They wanted something better. NAA Guardian from the get-go has been that impressive.
32ACP and 380 SCP are being "wrung out". I have not asked of late, still higher counts than most folks normally would treat these.
500 rds in two days and the guns still run, and never missed a beat, right out of the box. Remove factory preservatives, re-lube, and shoot the durn guns.

I have a preference for 32ACP, for personal reasons, and based on some other private matters, on guns this size.
.380ACP in the larger tip up Berettas and Browning BDAs.

At some point I will shoot the NAAs, and I already have a bias , the 32ACP without the "pinky" extended Mag.

I trust my gun buddy, we go way back. I trust these others. If one was dropped in my back pocket, loaded, and told ready to go, I would not bat an eye, and have no worries, even though I have not personally shot one yet.
 
Kel tec has had more than their share of problems, especially with their .380's. Their .32's seem to work fine ( I have 2 of them). Kel tec's quality control is severely lacking as I have friends that have had bunches of problems with their pistols. One guy had a 2nd gen. .380 that went back to kt twice and it came back still as a jam o matic. He sold it and got a revolver. Sad as he had a perfectly good .32 kt that he traded for the .380.

Like I said kt quality control is severely lacking. They should test fire their guns prior to shipping. That would save a lot of headaches for the buyers and k/t.
 
So now that I've stirred the pot up so badly what did I go and do???
Find a CZ-82 for a really nice price.

johnnytang24, I read your comments right AFTER I made my purchase.
 
P3AT .380, 4 boxes of silvertips, not a malfunction or failure to feed and is VERY accurate... Surprisingly so -- much better than my 9mm Taurus Millenium, even rivals my (full size frame) Daewoo .40s&w in accuracy.

In terms of weight and size, the P3AT wins IMHO. Everyone has opinions... they're just like another part of the anatomy.
Good luck with your decision.
 
I got rid of my p3at because of the size of my hand. It was uncomfortable to shoot. I have a Kel Tec pf9 and I really recommend everyone looking at that before you buy any other pocket gun. $299 and $28 for a second mag. I had one FTE in the first 100 rounds, but now have 200 through and it shoots very accurately and more comfortably than the .380. JMHO.
 
I went through 2 different 9mm as a carry gun but came across the Bersa Thunder 380 one day in a pawn shop. The owner came down to $225 new in the box and I bought it. Havent been sorry since. In 6 months over a 1000 rounds fired through it and it hasnt given me any problem. I still carry a 9mm in the car but carry the 380 on me everywhere I go. I highly recommend it to anyone.
 
anybody have any thoughts on the Sky? saw this on another forum and wished i was in MN:
Click to expand...


My Gunsmith buddy kept being contacted about this Skye. Lady was real nice , very knowledgeable and answered questions.
Now gunsmith asked, upon receiving brochures, if this was being made by Kel-Tec or a branch of the family of Kel-Tec?
Reply was no.

Short time passes, and one of gunsmith buddies , IPSC shooter has to have a gun for a lady he is dating "ASAP, and it has to have a Safety".

<sigh, cuss, roll eyes here>

This guy never took this lady to the range, nothing , real jerk, still the wanted that Skye, ASAP, fastest way possible.


-It looks just like a Kel-Tec P-11 with a Safety.
I mean set a P-11 on top of it, every aspect, and it matches up.

-Now Kel-Tec has some unique Polymer, CNC and other things they do, in the non firearm business as well .

-Skye is NOT the same quality of Polymer, or Metallurgy.
One can feel the difference, that obvious.
Magazines are not the same Quality.
MecGar makes the Kel-Tec mags, I forget who these were...


No. Do not get the Skye.

She dumped this jerk, I worked with her, more than Gunsmith buddy.
She shot a variety and went with a good used Model 10.
She has since added some other guns.

WE do the "Hackathorn Test" - the paper don't lie.
 
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