Gray area in selling a firearm at a gun show

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Phil13338

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I was a at gun show not long ago and was trying to sell one of my guns. I'm not too brushed up on my gun laws of do's and dont's but I was told that at a gun show, you can pretty much buy, sell, trade guns quite freely. Anway, a man approaches me and was interested in buying it. After agreeing to the price, his actions made me a little leary.

1) He said he didn't want to count out the money in front of everyone so he asked if I could go out to his truck which was parked right in front. I didn't think much of it so I agreed.

2) On our way out, he stated that he had an out of state license but was in process of moving. Now I do know that if I shipped it to an out of state buyer, I need to send it to FFL but wasnt too sure of face to face transactions. Also, at the time I only knew of a couple rules of private sales which is A) I have to have reasonable suspicion that he is not a felon and B) proof that he is over 21. Which he passed both.

3) When it came time to pay as he counted out his money and I was filling out the bill of sale, he asked me to put my hand print on the back of the sheet of paper for 'just in case'.

At that point, it got just a little too weird. I told him that I didn't feel 100% comfortable that I was doing everything by the books and needed some time to brush up on the rules. I walked away with my firearm and went back inside. What do you guys think. What kind of opinion or advice can you give?
 
If he wasn't a resident of your state, the sale would have been illegal.

Almost sounds like a set up either by LE, a news group, or anti-gun group.
 
Good man.

Out of state license should have been the first no no.
Tell him to hit you up when he can prove he's a resident.

You can NOT sell to an out of state resident in a FTF private sale. That should be added to your checks in #2.
 
ColtPythonElite said:
If he wasn't a resident of your state, the sale would have been illegal.

Almost sounds like a set up either by LE, a news group, or anti-gun group.
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I agree 100%.

Phil13338 said:
I was a at gun show not long ago and was trying to sell one of my guns. I'm not too brushed up on my gun laws of do's and dont's but I was told that at a gun show, you can pretty much buy, sell, trade guns quite freely.
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Before you sell a firearm in a private sale, you should KNOW your state and Federal laws. "I was told" won't hold up very well in court when you are busted by the ATF for making an illegal sale. Asking the simple question question here, providing us with your state of residence (and if the gun show was in your state of residence) would get you references to the real answers. For example, depending on the state, the likely legal age would be 18, not 21.
 
In such a situation, my ethos tells me that discretion is the better part of valor, and intelligence.

I personally would have shined this yahoo on before you did. At a minimum, you are not on good ground with any "in the process of moving" story when observing the laws regarding in state sales. I am never desperate to sell or buy. If the "anti's" have any point at all it would be unregulated sales at gunshows. In my experience the questionable characters come out of the woodwork in such venues.

Always take The High Road. If your price is reasonable and your gun good, then you never need hesitate to take a pass. If not, then maybe you are the yahoo I'm avoiding.

P.S. This isn't gray to me, it's pretty much black.
 
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The OP did well to pass.
I would have passed when he told me he didn't want to count the money out in the show.
Seriously?
It is a gun show - a lot of money changes hands.
I dang sure wouldn't have gone to the parking lot with him, I would have been thinking possible robbery....
 
The OP was wise to pass.

Under 18 USC 922(a)(5), it's illegal to transfer a gun to someone who the transferor, "....knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..."

That story about the driver's license and "in the process of moving" would almost certainly be considered "reasonable cause to believe" by a grand jury.
 
"I was told that at a gun show, you can pretty much buy, sell, trade guns quite freely"

Was that the MSM who told you that? And of the gun show loophole?? Time to get educated.
 
Lots of red flags on this proposed transaction. OP was right to decline.

The notion that we can eliminate this sort of thing by requiring UBC is ludicrous, and this example shows why. A lot of less scrupulous sellers would have taken the money, and, assuming for the moment that this was not an ATF plant, nobody would have ever known.

Of course, adding registration to the UBC would solve that problem, right? That is the argument we must remember, because it is the next one the antis will assert once they get UBC.
 
He may have had an out of state license. I'll bet he also had a BATFE badge and if you had sold him the gun you would have been arrested. The handprint was to make sure you couldn't claim you never saw him or made any sale. The transaction was also probably being recorded by a camera in his truck.

A lot of time wasted to try to trick someone? Sure, but those guys get promoted based on an arrest record, not for being nice guys.

Jim
 
Handprint on the back of the bill of sale sounds too much like how cops will touch a tail light on a car to leave their handprint.

Yikes!

We definitely have to give the gun grabbers no additional reasons to come after us.

I'll only sell face-to-face to fellow CHL holders.
 
Well, everyone has covered it. You did good, and escaped what I would put money on was a BAATFE sting. (and yep, the extra "A" means something - not complimentary...)
 
Just after GCA 68 became law, two customers asked a "friend" who worked in a gun shop if he knew anyone who might have a .45 auto for sale. He referred them to me. (At which point he stopped being a friend.) This state has license plates back and front, but the two of them came in a car with no plate on the front. (Hmmm.)

First they were collectors wanting to buy a GI gun. I said I didn't have any, only a target gun. So they became target shooters, and wanted to buy that. I didn't sell. Then they were interested in WWII guns and wanted to know if I had a Luger. Nope. Then they were interested in western guns and wanted to know if I had any old Colts. Nope.

After a while I got tired of playing silly games and told them I had no guns for sale and wasn't planning on having any. They left.

I fired off letters to my Senators, Congressman, and the Director of the ATTD (as it was then), asking just why fed agents were working Saturday overtime trying to trick innocent people into violating the law. The Director claimed they weren't his guys. Sure.

Jim
 
That story about the driver's license and "in the process of moving" would almost certainly be considered "reasonable cause to believe" by a grand jury.
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Excuse me? Just what the hell do you base that on Frank? When if questioned you would have to admit you knew NOTHING about the men in question? This sounds like the "they said it was alright" defense to me.

Good luck with that.
 
rswartsell said:
Frank Ettin said:
That story about the driver's license and "in the process of moving" would almost certainly be considered "reasonable cause to believe" by a grand jury.
Click to expand...

Excuse me? Just what the hell do you base that on Frank? When if questioned you would have to admit you knew NOTHING about the men in question? This sounds like the "they said it was alright" defense to me....
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Ah, thirty years practicing law.

The standard isn't "know" it's "reasonable cause to believe" the buyer isn't a resident. If someone (1) doesn't have a driver's license for the State in which the transaction is taking place; and (2) says something vague like "in the process of moving" to explain it, he certainly hasn't established that he's a resident. There is, therefore, a basis upon which to doubt his residency. So were the OP to make the sale, he could wind up charged with a violation of 18 USC 922(a)(5).

Of did you miss where I said:
Frank Ettin said:
The OP was wise to pass....
Click to expand...
 
OK I see, the quote I extracted was tounge in cheek? No, reasonable cause to believe DOES NOT live in that state. I'm slow but finally get it. Sorry to be so thick.

This situation is not to me a gray area. It's a no go. That states it plainly.
 
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