Grouping issues

[Mono]

Good day Gents

Its been a while since I posted, so please be gentle. As some of you may know, I have had some issues with my Marlin XL7 30-06. But even with all crap I have had, I did not quit trying to sort it out.She is my first new rifle. So over the years i have tried and tried, tested and tested. Approximately 2000 rounds have gone through this baby after they properly fixed the extractor, ( found out this week that i was not the only who had the extractor break.)
Unfortunately down here in Namibia( north of South Africa, south of Angola and west of Zimbabwe for those that do not know), we don't have a lot of options when it comes to gunpowder and primers. The variety of the latter only recently increased. Bullets I have tried are 150gr PMP, 180gr PMP( if you ever find some one who tells you these are great, slap him HARD!!. PMP's nickname directly translated is FART ME FLAT.). I did Sierra Gameking and Prohunter with average results, which was a 1" group at 100m( +- 140yards), which most people will say is good.
Then switched over to Nosler Ballistic tips 168gr, which during load development would constanly give me .75" groups at the same distance.
My basic recipe was Highlander Bass( Privi Partizan), CCI 250 magnum primers, and a S365 Powder which is supposedly equivalent to IMR4350. This however was not enough for me, because a .75 group on 100m turns into a 2'' group at 200m and so on and so forth. So the tests continued.
Changed powder to S355 which is supposed to be equivalant to IMR4320. Did not change my brass, or primers( primers due to availabilty issues and brass, because I have a lot of it) and the result was outstanding. If i could sort out the one bloody flier i have every time, then it will be a constant grouping of .25 and less. The usual result is two shot in one,where you can barely see the outline of the second hole and then there is is the one that is 1 to 3 cm off. If the flier went to the same side every time, it would likely mean that I pulled the shot, but it goes left, right, up and down. Also, there is no pattern. It would be 1,2, flyer, then say flier,1,2 or 1,flier,2.
The only item in my recipe that has stayed the same over the past two years, is the brass, which I will be tossing away TODAY. This due to 15 shots loaded, and 5 not being able to fit the rifle becuase of the should being bent.
I fully understand that a .25 group at 100m ( and .25 at 150m which i shot today) is good, but i need to eliminate the flier.
Could it be the Brass that is bent or old. The reason i want to sort this out is because the shots we take are between 50m and 600m, thus if you take a 600meter shot and its a flier, you have a long way to walk if you would the animal.
Help, advise and Critism will be highly appreciated.

rgds
The Neck

 

[Art Eatman]

If for the first one or two shots the point of impact is reliably at the point of aim, I generally don't worry about fliers. I've always figured that fliers could be due to me as a shooter, as likely as the rifle or load.

Shoulder bent? Maybe something in how the sizing die is adjusted?

FWIW, brass can be annealed and solve the problem of work-hardening from resizing. Set the cases upright in a pan. Add water to about 1/4" below the shoulder. Heat the brass to a low red with a propane torch. Shake the pan.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Hi Mono.

Get good brass, Remington is cheap but if you can afford it get some Norma or Lapua.

S335 is not the mosty successfull powder in the 30-06 so stick with the S365.

I have never got a load to shoot decently with CCI250 primers and S365. I suggest you buy Russian Large Rifle primers (Wolf in the states). Their burn rate seems to match the S365 extremely well.

A 1" group at 100m is great for hunting but I do understand the quest for better. By the way angles are linear functions so .75" @ 100m = 1.5" @ 200m = 3" @300m there are thousands of hunters who would be ecstatic with that perfomance. You hunting or target shooting?

I have found 165gr. SGK to be the most accurate bullet in my 30-06.

How experienced a reloader are you? Do you for example;

- Trip your case length regularly? This is the most probable reason for you not being able to chamber cases.
- What is your measured jump to the lands?
- What is your current powder load.
- Do you anneal your brass after about every 5th firing?
- Do you measure speed as speed is fairly diagnostic of chamber pressures?
- Do you use an electronic / beam scale or just the powder dispenser?
- Do you FL or Neck size only?

Personally I do not believe in flyers, I do believe that most our wayward shot are all self inflicted. Do you have a flinch, have you checked for this?

If you can answer these questions we can get a better idea of your case preperation and reloading experience, then we can jump in and help.

Cheers

 

[Kachok]

A 165gr SGK is the second most accurate bullet in my 30-06, only my 150gr Accutips are grouping tighter, a max load of RL19 moves those 150gr really quick and they group VERY tight.

 

[Mono]

Hi Andrew

Thanks for reply. To answer your questions:
- Trip your case length regularly? This is the most probable reason for you not being able to chamber cases. Yes, I do check my cases regularly.
- What is your measured jump to the lands? I am about 2.5mm from the lands. sounds far, but it gives me the best group.
- What is your current powder load. I currently load 48.2gr of S355, CCI250 primer, Privi Brass, and 168gr Nosler Ballistic tips
- Do you anneal your brass after about every 5th firing?- nope, never do
- Do you measure speed as speed is fairly diagnostic of chamber pressures? don't have a chrony, but if there is someone at the range, i do check it. have not do so with this load though.
- Do you use an electronic / beam scale or just the powder dispenser? I always use an electric scale, however I am seriously thinking of going beam scale.
- Do you FL or Neck size only? FL only- have broken my extractor twice trying to neck, so not taking a chance again, especially this close to hunting season.

For guidance, see attached pic of the group i got this morning. the one way of was when i was sighting the scope. this is my 1st and 3rd shot. nr 2 was not fired due to the shoulder issue.
Lastly, the main reason for my accuracy need is my love for animals( yes you can all laugh or go aww!, I don't mind). We go for one shot kills. If we are not certain of our shot we do not take it. I aim at two parts of the animal, head or neck. They must not suffer.
rgds
The Neck

 

[adelbridge]

No offense but you have a budget rifle shooting .75" consistently I dont think you have a problem. If you are willing to pull your hair out trying to make one hole at 100m I would suggest some trigger work and a new stock. I have never swapped a Marlin X7 barrel but from what I understand they can be swapped with Savage barrels and I know EABCO has some good precision Savage barrels in stock. If you can reload you can probably change a savage barrel, all you need is a torque wrench, savage nut wrench and a go gauge/no go gauge.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

- Trim your case length regularly? This is the most probable reason for you not being able to chamber cases. Yes, I do check my cases regularly.

And you do trim?

- What is your measured jump to the lands? I am about 2.5mm from the lands. sounds far, but it gives me the best group.

This is the jump my Sierra's like the best, Accubonds are at 0.8mm as they have a different ogive.

- Do you anneal your brass after about every 5th firing?- nope, never do

You should, you cases are too hard and over worked, neck tensions must be very tight.

- Do you use an electronic / beam scale or just the powder dispenser? I always use an electric scale, however I am seriously thinking of going beam scale.

If you have a good electronic scale no need, these cheap R 400 jobs are not up to the job.

- Do you FL or Neck size only? FL only- have broken my extractor twice trying to neck, so not taking a chance again, especially this close to hunting season.

Don't understand. Does your extractor break when trying to eject fired cases? If so your case is not springing back post firing, jamming in the chamber. The case should expand to the chamber wall during firing but then should be ductile enough to spring back slighly so that it releases easily. Google annealing brass cases.

Oh and by the way your 0.75" group at 100m is actually 19.05mm/29mm = 0.65MOA. 1MOA is roughly 1" at 100yds but 29mm at 100m so when comparing group sizes the only constant measure is to express these as MOA.

 

[Mono]

Hi Andrew

I trim my cases every third or forth time the case is used.
I would rather not try annealing the brass, not now anyways. Purely from a safety point of veiw( I am not the Luckiest man in the world)
I don't have a expensive scale, but wasn't cheap also. The problem in Namibia is that everyone wants to make some money, so by the time the product gets to me, its more than double the original price.
Finally, my extractor broke(twice) from neck sizing. I bought factory ammo to break in the rifle, and when i started reloading, started with the neck sizing. After the shot fired, my bolt was a little hard to open, but this happened before in my 8X57 and with my Father in laws .308., there was no damage to the other to rifles bolts, so did not think something will happen to this one. I put in my second bullet, fired the shot and when i opened the bolt, i noticed that the case was not properly ejected. I removed the bolt to see whats wrong and saw that the extractor broke. Took the rifle back to the shop i boat it from, and 5 weeks later got it back. Put the bullet in fired the shot and wouldn't you know it, extractor broke again. The next morning i got in my car and drove to the main dealer in Windhoek, which is 400km away. told him my story and three hours later returned home with my repaired rifle. Learnt later though that the materials used to make the extractor is a compound and if it breaks it is replaced by a extractor from another make with a similar design and is stronger. i forgot the name though. Ever since then( 2 years ago) i refrained from neck sizing to avoid any breakage. You probably have a few questions, which I assume the answers to will be.
Whenever get new brass( from a friend or shop), I always full length resized. if it was in another rifle it got full sized, so that was not the problem.
I did not go over the max SAAMI specs( i think), because the extractor broke at 1.7gr above minimum.
Pressure was not the problem(according to my primative way off checking) as there was no indication of same at the primer.( primer was not flat)
when loading the round, the bolt did not close any different to when I full sized.

kind regards
The Neck

 

[Mono]

Forgot to mention, I measure all my rounds from the ogive. don't know if this will make a difference in performance between different bullets.
Also, its 150mtrs.
Adelbridge- unfortunately, its not very easy to get a licence in Namibia, so we cannot chop and change as we like. Our gun licence is issued based on the serial on the barrel, thus, unless you have a collectors licence or sportmans licence, there is no way you can buy a barrel of the same caliber unless the old one has been removed from your name.

rgds
The Neck

 

[Kachok]

I never have had a 30-06 that would go .25" on a regular basis, I do have one that goes 1/2" with boring regularity but that is the best I have worked up thus far. Only cartridges that I have had shoot .25" or better groups back to back are my 270 WSM (130gr SGKs/IMR4350), 7mm-08 (120gr Pro Hunters/H380) and my 6.5x55 (129gr SST/RL19 and several 140gr bullets with RL22)
I never sweat a 1/2" group, that is plenty accurate to hit any hog in the head out to any range I dare shoot if I do my part. I don't feel handicapped at all with my 308 or 30-06.