Guess I'll make the open top guys mad

[MCgunner]

Well, try as I might, I can't hit squat with a '51. I'm on my second, a brass 44. I know, I know, it's not a REAL Navy, it's not a .36. Well, THIS one came with a 5" barrel, too, and Cabela's sold it to me for 119 bucks, so I cannot complain too much. I bought a used 7" barrel for it. I might cut it down in the future, that was the plan, snubby project.

Anyway, since I got this gun, I bought a 5.5" Remington, also a Pietta, was on sale for $179, just couldn't resist. That gun is AWESOME, shoots little 2.5" groups a little left with RB and 30 grain charge of Pyrodex. I love shooting that gun, but wish the Colt replica could shoot that good. 5-7" 25 yard benched groups are the rule with it, pretty much worthless for plinking beyond 10 yards at a 10" target. :banghead: The gun is handy, points well, but point shoot ranges are required of it. I couldn't hit squat with my old '51, either, just made noise with it. I got a Ruger Old Army and, WOW, it was as accurate as my cartridge guns!. My stainless ROA got stolen, but I replaced it with a blued one that shoots just as good.

I know both the '51s shoot/shot high, normal for them, but neither one would group for squat! I shoot either 21 grain equivs of 777 or 25 grain equivs of Pyrodex (cannot buy BP around here) in reverence to the brass frame on the '51 and tried RB and some conical, prefer the RB. NOTHING shoots well in the gun. I give up. Cool looking, good pointing gun, but worthless except as a 4th of July noise maker. I'll just go back to shooting my ROA or my '58 Remmy and be happy, I guess. I do like to see that target wobble once in a while. :banghead:

 

[CraigC]

For one thing, the sights are terrible and make accurate shooting a challenge. I find the dovetail post front sight I had installed on my Dragoon works well with the hammer notch and is infinitely better than the original. Plus, it hits point of aim! Good thing about the Colt design is all you have to send to your trusty gunsmith is the barrel.

 

[MCgunner]

True enough about the sites and my eyes ain't that good anymore. They were good, though, when I had the first one. I don't know if I'd wanna go to the expense of having a sight dovetailed, but it's a thought. I think if I did that, it'd be with the 7" barrel which shoots a might better.

 

[kituwa]

There is nothing about the colt design that makes it less acurate than the remington other than maybe the sites and that can be fixed somewhat.In fact the colt has a longer sight radius than a rem. has and that is always an advantage.Sometimes the brass frame guns are not as nicely finished out so it may just need a little tuning up.Check to make sure the cylinder is lining up right.Then check the barrel bore and see if its rough and needs a little lapping.Could just be it needs the forcing cone reamed a bit or smoothed up. But if all else fails,,i will trade you a box of fire crackers and some party poopers for your 51,lol.

 

[Jaymo]

I, too, prefer my ROA and Rem for most BP shooting. The Uberti 1862 Police is sweet, but I'm not going to try to hit anything past about 10 yards with it, anyway.
I like the Colts a lot. I didn't like the Remington or ROA growing up.
Shooting them has changed my tune.
I like the more rigid barrel mounting of the ROA and Remington.
Trouble is, the Colts look so cool.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Try opening up the rear sight notch and replacing the front nub with a real brass post. The existing nub either is press fit or screws in and can be replace with a new post made from 1/8 inch brazing rod, a Dremel (working as a lathe), and a couple files.

 

[MCgunner]

Try opening up the rear sight notch and replacing the front nub with a real brass post. The existing nub either is press fit or screws in and can be replace with a new post made from 1/8 inch brazing rod, a Dremel (working as a lathe), and a couple files.

I've thought of doing this just to get it to shoot POA at 25 yards. THAT seems like it would help. I've already opened up the notch with a file and take a funky sight picture to get it regulated. I did this very thing with a braising rod on my .31 pocket Remmy. It got it shooting POA, but it shoots groups about like the Navy, 5-7" at 25 yards benched, so ain't much of a plinker, either.

I think maybe I'll do the braising rod sight with the 7" barrel. If it works out (more accurate barrel, anyway), I'll keep the barrel for plinking. Otherwise, I might cut it off for that snubby project I bought it for in the first place. Sounds like a fun project if nothing else.

I like the more rigid barrel mounting of the ROA and Remington.
Trouble is, the Colts look so cool.

Well, I can't argue with that. I like the little 5" barrel, too, on the gun. It's kinda petite, anyway, just looks nasty with the shorter barrel. Heck, it was worth the 120 bucks just for the looks of the thing.

 

[Old Fuff]

A lot of those brass-framed 1851 Navy reproductions have barrels with a .376" - .380" groove diameter, and chambers that run about .372" at the mouth. Since the chamber sizes the ball, regardless of it's original diameter it easy to see why what they do on a target isn't impressive. :banghead:

However they aren't all bad. I had one that was so accurate I could (and did) show off by hitting the little NRA trademark in the corner of a 50-foot target while shooting at that distance. It didn't last long though before a crack developed between the frame's basepin hole and the hand slot. That cured me from buying "brassers" for serious shooting.

 

[TheRodDoc]

If you are using anything but pure lead for the balls and using wads under the ball, it would most likely be the cause of your inaccuracy.

 

[MCgunner]

Swaged .454 Speer ball and cornmeal filler.

Yeah, Old Fuff has hit on what I'm thinkin' may be the problem, only in .44...undersized chambers. I haven't slugged anything. I ain't gonna spend actual money on it to fix it, might could buy a reamer, but even that would be spending more than I want to. LOL It's a decent looker and like Fuff says, ain't really built of a shooter's material. It was cheap and I wanted it at the time.

I over-loaded my first one, not being too acquainted with the whole black powder thing in 1974. I filled it full of FFF DuPont and banged away, no filler and even shooting a cast Lee conical. By 1979 it'd stretched to the point it wouldn't set off a cap, or the pin pulled, whatever happened, wouldn't have happened on a steel framed gun. But, keeping the load light helps a lot, it seems.

 

[TheRodDoc]

The corn meal may also be the cause. first it may be cushioning the ball from swelling to fill the rifling and second might be as the ball leaves the muzzle. the expanding gasses blowing through the meal in whatever direction it wants around the ball. moving the ball some in that direction.

 

[J-Bar]

Quick and easy comparison of bore diameter to chamber mouth diameter...

Push a soft lead ball through the barrel with a wooden dowel or brass range rod, then see if it will drop into the chamber. You want it to... the barrel should be a smaller diameter than the chamber mouth. If the ball will not drop into the chamber, the chamber mouth is too small for the bore. No micrometer needed. But you will still use one because you are curious, aren't you.

 

[Archaic Weapon]

I know from the recommended loads in my books that your may be putting in too much powder. I know that mine recommend 15gr for .36 and 17gr for .44. Would explain shooting high. Flip side, maybe you should take in less front sight, so you aim lower. I have shot river cane at ten yards straight out of the box with my Navy, using round ball and wadding.

 

[RaceM]

Tried dropping your powder charge a bit? Some guns shoot a better with a relatively light 15gr charge. Both my Remmy and Colt repro seem to do just fine with 15 grains. Also, wonder wads, or similar, help keep your load consistent chamber to chamber.

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, I've tried lighter loads, not really an improvement in accuracy and I didn't like the "pfffft" aspects of the load. I load it the same as my Remmy with corn meal for filler and the corn meal don't seem to affect the Remmy at all.

Push a soft lead ball through the barrel with a wooden dowel or brass range rod, then see if it will drop into the chamber. You want it to... the barrel should be a smaller diameter than the chamber mouth. If the ball will not drop into the chamber, the chamber mouth is too small for the bore. No micrometer needed. But you will still use one because you are curious, aren't you.

Last night I was figuring on pulling a nipple and driving a ball out after seating it. Your method sounds a bit easier and good 'nuf for gubment work. I feel like an idiot for not thinkin' about that. I'll mess with that today. I'm really thinkin' the chambers may be too small. The remedy would be a reamer, I reckon. Last time I bought a reamer (for valve guides, not a firearm), was around 25 bucks. Might be worth messing with.

 

[J-Bar]

You might be able to just enlarge the chamber mouth with a drill on a drill press. You would only need to do the top half inch. Gotta get it perfectly centered though.

 

[MCgunner]

Hmm, well, I have my answer. Yep, I pushed a ball down the barrel with the ball starter for my rifles. Had to push it the rest of the way out with my brass shotgun cleaning rod, but it was quite easy with the ball starter. I get these brainstorms sometimes.

Okay, the ball measures about .446" at the lands, grooves about .002" bigger or .448". The ball will NOT drop into the cylinder cambers. It didn't lack much, so I pushed it in with finger pressure and extracted with needle nose pliers and it's right at 0.4455" (just under land diameter for cylinder chamber diameter. Do you guys think this is enough difference to be the problem? I would think so, but I know the ball is supposed to expand a little under pressure. The chamber shouldn't be under land size, though, I wouldn't think.

So, whadda you all think I should get for a reamer size? I don't have a drill press, would rather use a reamer anyway.

 

[Cosmoline]

I have an Uberti Army that gives me 3" groups at best, while the Uberti Navy '51 gives me 2" or better, and the Walker gives me a cloverleaf. Some of them shoot best with moderate loads, but others prefer max loads and compressed powder. The Walker in particular really shines maxed out. All are steel frame of course.

 

[Old Fuff]

I would expect the grooves to be more then .002" deep, as they should be .004" - .006". If the root diameter was .446" then the outside groove diameter would be .454" - 458",which would be in line with factory specifications. Be that as it may, bore dimensions can run all over the map on "brassers" because they were generally made to a low price point and expected to be used mostly for display.

If the rifling is really only .002" deep, and the ball as chamber-sized to .445"-.446" I'd think you'd have for all practical purposes a smooth bore - that wouldn't likely offer outstanding accuracy.

There are additional factors, such as chamber/bore concentricity which will affect accuracy.

The most expensive .44 cap & ball revolvers that have a reputation for accuracy generally have chamber diameters around .452" - .456" and bore groove diameters to match.

The practice of making chambers way undersized vs. bore dimensions may (or may not) have been deliberate to lower pressures to below safe levels.

 

[MCgunner]

I was measuring with a mic and might have smushed the lead a bit with it, but it's NOT more than .004" difference in land and groove diameter. You can look down the bore and tell it's pretty shallow. I looked down the bore of my 7" barrel and it does look like the grooves are a bit deeper, but I haven't slugged it. It also shoots a bit better. That's why I haven't chopped it as I was planning to.

I think at this point I just won't mess with it. Wouldn't wanna raise chamber pressures on a brasser, anyway. This thread, however, might educate someone looking to buy one of these guns. I noticed Cabelas has it on sale again for $179, think it was. I only gave 120 for it, feel better about THAT, at least. Heck, I gave $179 for the Remmy. That's a steel gun and shoots great.

Ya win some, ya lose some.

 

[Old Fuff]

I'll give ya' hint that I usually charge $5,000.00 for...

If you must buy a brasser make it one in .36 caliber, and a Remington or Witney with a topstrap is a better choice then any open-top. Also don't have high expectations for good accuracy. It does happen, but it's not predictable.

Graduate to steel-frame revolvers and you have a different ball game.

 

[dickydalton]

I know one thing, If you are counting on your balls swelling into the rifling grooves for accuracy, you are looking at the wrong thing. My most accurate loads have wads under the balls.
That was funny too, even if you don't think so.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I've fired 3"-4" groups with the 7" barrel on the thing from the bench at 25 yards. Yesterday, I loaded 3 cylinders and fired with that barrel on a 1 gallon vinegar jug. From 50 ft, I ht it 4 or 5 out of 6. I couldn't do that with the 5" barrel. So, I ain't gonna chop that 7" barrel, I guess. It seems to shoot straight enough to have some fun with occasionally.

 

[Old Fuff]

Hint: Take advantage of the open-top design and buy an extra shorter-length barrel assembly with the bullet rammer and wedge. By having both you don't have to invest in a whole new gun. It only takes a minute to switch barrels.

Some of Sam Colt's cased sets came with an extra barrel...

 

[JRs12Valve]

My Uberti Walker Colt will shoot 2" 5 shot groups at 30 yards, with 47 grains of pyrodex, a .457 ball, and felt wad. My Pietta Remington 1858 shoots a 5" 5 shot group at 30 yards, at best. Of course, it does have the 5.5" barrel though. It's all about load development.