Guess they want more victims in Va....

[ATAShooter]

I guess they just want us to be victims...

Panel rejects bill allowing people to kill intruders


From NBC12 News
Monday, February 27, 2006


A Senate committee rejected legislation Monday that would've allowed you to kill anyone who breaks into your house and physically threatens you.

The bill essentially would have written the common law theory of self defense into the Virginia code. Republican Delegate John Welch of Virginia Beach said his bill would make it clear to Virginians that they have a right to use deadly force against an intruder.


Henry County Commonwealth's Attorney Bob Bushnell urged the Courts of Justice Committee to reject the bill, which he said amounted to ''a license to kill.''



The committee killed the bill on a voice vote.

 

[Merkin.Muffley]

What are you supposed to do when someone breaks into your home and physically threatens you?

 

[Sindawe]

What are you supposed to do when someone breaks into your home and physically threatens you?

1. Let out a terrified scream.
2. Void your bowels.
3. Run away.

Another reason I'm glad I live in Colorado. We have a long standing "Make My Day" law. Home invasions are rare, and usually fatal to the invader.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Another reason I'm glad I live in Colorado. We have a long standing "Make My Day" law. Home invasions are rare, and usually fatal to the invader.

Same here. It would be interesting to see the rate of home invasions charted and graphed against state laws pertaining to the right to self-defense. Off the top of my head, I'd guess there's more than a coincidental coorespondence.

 

[ArmedBear]

Even California law includes the express provision that someone who has forcefully entered your home -- even WITHOUT a stated physical threat -- is assumed to intend to commit bodily harm; thus deadly force can be used to stop them.

...as long as you don't do it with an "unsafe handgun", an "assault weapon" or a "high capacity" magazine...

What's the VA law as it stands now?

 

[cuchulainn]

ArmedBear: What's the VA law as it stands now?

If the article is correct, the VA law is that you can shoot an intruder -- it's just not part of any statute, but simply part of common law. This was simply an attempt to codify common law -- it wouldn't have changed the legality of home defense, simply codified it. That would be nice, but it's not necessary.

At least that's how I read, "The bill essentially would have written the common law theory of self defense into the Virginia code. Republican Delegate John Welch of Virginia Beach said his bill would make it clear to Virginians that they have a right to use deadly force against an intruder."

 

[tenbase]

Virginia has good gun laws (or lack thereof) in general - shall issue, open carry, state preemption - but it's things like this that really chap my

From the VCDL Legislative Update newsletter:

We are coming down to the finish line for bills to pass the General Assembly and head to the Governor's desk.

Today was not a good day.

HB 829, Delegate Welch's 'castle doctrine' bill for citizens in their residence, was killed by an 11 to 4 vote in the Senate Courts of Justice Committee.

I was the only one who spoke in favor of the bill.

The Commonwealth Attorney's Association lobbyist, Mr. Bushnell, went into a bizarre description of a scenario where he said the bill would allow the home owner to commit a murder.

I must say that Mr. Bushnell really missed his calling as a fiction writer.

Jim Kadison and I were shaking our heads as his scenario was clearly NOT allowed by HB 829.

If I had tried to pull that kind of foolishness, the Committee members would have put an end to such wild, drawn-out "theories" in short order.

But Mr. Bushnell was allowed to ramble on and on about a theoretical 6 foot 5 inch, 250 pound dad who didn't want a 150 pound 5 foot 9 boy dating his daughter. In this fairy tale the father would ban the boy from the house and when the boy enters to see the daughter, the father would yell at the boy to intimidate him and the boy would then take a swing at the father and bloody the father's lip. Mr. Bushnell contended that at that point the father could kill the boy legally!

Shheeeeeessssh. I said he missed his calling as a fictional writer, I didn't say anyone would buy his books! ;-)

Senator Cucinelli suggest a one word change that would add "unprovoked" to the bill to clarify that the above scenario would not be allowed. However, no one would second the recommendation (most of the pro-gun Republicans were absent when this bill came up).

Voting CORRECTLY: Rerras, Cuccinelli, Obenshain, McDougle

Voting INCORRECTLY: Stolle, Saslaw, Marsh, Quayle, Norment, Howell, Lucas, Edwards, Reynolds, Puller, Blevins

VCDL thanks Delegate Welch for putting in this bill and fighting to protect the citizens of Virginia!

Just another day in urban la-la-land. DC and Maryland are lousy influences on an otherwise sane state.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Was this maybe just a meaningless, unnecessary law that made no real change? I can't believe that it's currently illegal to kill someone that breaks into your house and physically threatens you. It sounds like one legislator wanted to show he's "tough on crime" and throw an interest group a little raw meat while others wanted to keep him from delivering something. Politics as usual, part of the circus.

 

[JohnBT]

The lawyer who presented to my concealed carry class years ago said we needed to retreat from a threat inside the house 'if we could' before shooting.

John

 

[merk]

Theres a difference between rights and laws. And Natures law of survival definitely over rides mans law of cowardice.

 

[Camp David]

What are you supposed to do when someone breaks into your home and physically threatens you?

I guess the Commonwealth wants you to use harsh words!

This asinine restriction of common sense legislation upsets me; I favor Republican Delegate John Welch's understanding and his bill, to make clear to Virginians that they have a right to use deadly force against an intruder. That seems a priority; why such was denied by voice vote is beyond me. My guess is that as more sisified and effeminate legistlators are elected to office, the whole idea of castle defense upsets them dearly...

As a Virginian, I see it as my law inside my home and my law dictates what I do therein; my guess is that despite such effemuinate legislators representating the Commonwealth, citizens herein will do what they wish inside their home and defend it as always despite their weak representatives working against citizen's interest.

 

[XLMiguel]

There's no particular problem with smoking a BG in your house in VA, assuming you really do perceive at threat. That means you can't shoot 'em in the back if they're trying to leave, but otherwise there's not too much to worry about. Besides, if lethal force results in a dead BG, the only story that counts is yours, assuming the forensics don't prove you stapled him to the floor after he was down, etc.

VCDL is a wonderful organization that is really making a difference. They do an outstanding job at sheparding legislation thru the legislature and standing up to those who would limit 2A rights in the Old Dominion. The also do a great job of keeping interested parties informed of what's going on in Richmond and when and who to contact to make your voice heard. God bless 'em!

 

[beerslurpy]

This doesnt change anything, you already (as the article points out) have a common law right to do this anyway.

 

[John Hicks]

As I understand it, you are allowed to shoot first in your house at a perceived threat, regardless. There is no requirement of retreat, only imminent peril.

This is from an NRA CCW class (Basic Practical). The lawyer and State Trooper agreed, a BG in your house at night coming up the stairs is cause for fear and a shoot-first scenario. You do not need to retreat to a closet, you do not need to identify a weapon. All you have to do is be afraid for yourself or someone else.

As stated earlier here, the only real problem would be if you shot someone in the back leaving your house (even if they had your stuff) or it can be clearly demonstrated that you could see that they did not have a weapon and were not threatening you (even if they were stealing your stuff). Obviously this would have to be in a well lit situation and extremely bizarro situation -- not likely, but not impossible.

And +1 for VCDL -- doing more for VA gun rights than GOA and NRA combined.

jh

 

[tenbase]

There was more to the bill than simply affirming your right to drop a BG in your living room.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding a section numbered 18.2-91.1 as follows:

§ 18.2-91.1. Use of physical force, including deadly force, against an intruder; justified self-defense.

Any person who lawfully occupies a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when the other person has unlawfully entered the dwelling, has committed an overt act toward the occupant or another person in the dwelling, and the occupant reasonably believes he or another person in the dwelling is in imminent danger of bodily harm.

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, as provided in this section shall be immune from civil liability for injuries or death of the other person who has unlawfully entered the dwelling that results from the use of such force.

Emphasis mine.

 

[JohnBT]

But do you have the reponsibility to retreat to the second floor (or out the back door) when someone is breaking in during the day? Can you shoot them as they come through the front door if you don't see a gun, knife or tire iron?

"A Senate committee rejected legislation Monday that would've allowed you to kill anyone who breaks into your house and physically threatens you."

It doesn't say threatens you with a weapon, only physically threatens. What if they threaten to punch you out?

I would be inclined to defend myself. Unfortunately, the system will likely look at the level of threat and the amount of force used.

John
NRA Endowment Member
Member www.vcdl.org

 

[John Hicks]

Sadly John, in those cases, it depends on where you live.

Richmond, Arlington, or even Fairfax county and you might get a biased police officer, prosecutor, and jury (the anti-gun trifecta). Be anywhere else in the state and the cops might pin a medal on you.

That being said, I the cops I know in Fairfax are pretty cool, it's the prosecutors and soccer-mommy jury you'd have to worry about. Arlington and Richmond, though are lost causes.

jh

 

[Camp David]

That being said, I the cops I know in Fairfax are pretty cool, it's the prosecutors and soccer-mommy jury you'd have to worry about

John...To satisfy such prosecutors and soccer-mom juries, and cover every eventuality, the educated Virginian adds a baseball bat to his bedside arsenal, just in case deadly force is not warranted, but a good beating is....



What other choice is available?

 

[JohnBT]

I believe things have changed this year in the City of Richmond, not that they were ever really that bad. There was a major opinion change here on the part of a lot of folks, even some of the pacifists, when the Harvey family was murdered New Year's Day. The horror of a mom, dad and two little girls, 9 & 4, being killed in their basement by two ex-cons will do that. They bound them, cut their throats and then set the place on fire.

John

 

['Card]

I keep an extra handgun around for just such a situation, actually.

There's no requirement for registration of the guns I already owned when I moved to North Carolina, and there's no written record anywhere that says I own this particular handgun. So if the unarmed and recently-perforated intruder is rapidly assuming room temperature on my living room floor, he'll become the proud new (if somewhat brief) owner of that shootin' iron.

I realize that some kind of high-tech CSI team could probably poke a dozen holes in my story afterwards, but here in rural NC I don't think anyone is going to bother checking the details too closely as long as a plausible sequence of events (along with some physical evidence) is handy and available.

 

[Manedwolf]

What are you supposed to do when someone breaks into your home and physically threatens you?

Make them a nice sandwich. But be careful, if they turn out to be allergic to something in the sandwich, they can sue you.

 

[Jeff White]

'Card said;

I keep an extra handgun around for just such a situation, actually.

There's no requirement for registration of the guns I already owned when I moved to North Carolina, and there's no written record anywhere that says I own this particular handgun. So if the unarmed and recently-perforated intruder is rapidly assuming room temperature on my living room floor, he'll become the proud new (if somewhat brief) owner of that shootin' iron.

I realize that some kind of high-tech CSI team could probably poke a dozen holes in my story afterwards, but here in rural NC I don't think anyone is going to bother checking the details too closely as long as a plausible sequence of events (along with some physical evidence) is handy and available.

It wouldn't take a high tech CSI team to poke a dozen holes in that story. The responding officers will likely see something is amiss and start digging deeper. A trace of the gun will take it to the last person who filled out a 4473 for it. How many hands did it pass through from the time it was last in a gunshop until you got it? Are all of those people dead? Does anyone in your family know you own that gun? How about neighbors or shooting buddies? How about the thousands of people you just told about your plan to obstruct justice on an open internet forum?

We don't advocate or discuss illegal activity here. If you pulled a stunt like that, no matter how justified you were in shooting the intruder, you will go to prison for a nice vacation..........

Jeff

 

[brickeyee]

Virginia has no 'duty to retreat'.
While the law is not code, ot os case (common) and has the exact same weight in court. It is just a little less convenient to access.
'The Virginia Gun Owners Guide' has good summaries of the applicable case law.
There is no real reason to codofy what is already deeply embedded intothe case law.

 

[JohnBT]

Since you're a lawyer, how about some free legal advice? Do the same standards apply inside my home as on the street - IOW, must I fear for my life before I can use deadly force? Or can I shoot anyone who breaks in and threatens to punch me or use any form of physical violence?

John

 

[ForeignDude]

Common Law Can Be Set Aside...

...as the example of England so readily testifies. The right to keep and bear arms that formed part of the English Bill of Rights, unwritten and upheld for centuries as "common" law, was tossed aside like yesterday's garbage when it suited certain political interests.

I don't like common law. Rights that rely on common law for continued protection stand atop the legal equivalent of sand. The American Founding Fathers were among the most brilliant group of men that history has ever known. Had they gone with cultural precedent and designed a legal basis for individual rights based on common law, we would all have been disarmed long ago.

Look, folks. If we've had so much trouble keeping the rights protected by the 2A, when this is explicitly written in the Constitution (and in plain English, I might add), then how much more vulnerable is any right no explicitly written into law?