Gun control advocate has me tied up, need help

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well iff'n he's from England, then he's probably got an entirely different attitude/mindset that you'll probably never change? Years (centuries) of being subjects instead of citizens tend to do that to ya!

Just quote him one of our paragons of wisdom (Krusty the Clown):
"Hey yutz. Guns aren't toys - - they're for family protection, hunting dangerous and delicious animals, and keeping the king of England outta your face". :neener:
 
Last edited:
Some countries with draconian gun control (like Taiwan) have higher than the U.S.
But I wouldn't waste my time arguing with him. You might just explain that when we kicked the British out of our country, we adopted a Constitution with a Second Amendment.... much better than anything the Brits had to offer!
gun'slaws--- any country any ways.
 
You could also point out that Americans murder each other by beating, kicking and stomping each other to death more often than the English kill each other by all means combined; ask him when he got his permit for his arms and legs.
 
Last edited:
Kevin Baker, of http://smallestminority.blogspot.com has spent extensive time engaging British based civil disarmament advocates who misuse similar statistics.

I checked his sidebar for links to the series, but I didn't see them.

If you send him an email asking for links, they're worth your time to read, charts, comments and all.

Long story short,

A) The comparison is invalid, not an apples/oranges thing
B) The Brit's "Home Office" has fudged their official stats
C) In America, the trend has been for the overall # of guns to go up, while the overal # of murders et all to go down, which refutes the asserted correlation.
D) There's a bunch of other reasons that really just eviscerates their position.
 
So, you're saying gun control, for some countries, actually works?

I don't think gun laws have much of an effect on the crime rate either way, it is only 1 variable out of dozens that do. However, it is undeniable that gun laws help enable democide, which is a much more serious problem than what we think of as "common" crime. So getting sucked into all these arguments over statistics about what is essentially a minor part of the problem is a waste of time, you're really missing the bigger picture.
 
Britain doesn't exactly have the minority gang situation that we do, and what about the good riddance factor? (Criminals killing each other).

Actually, yes they do - and it is increasing every day. Ask your UK friend about the increase in knife attacks - so large they are considering a ban on kitchen cutlery, box cutters, etc - this is in a country where the average citizen is watched on a gov't camera approximately 500 per DAY. Their lax immigration has led to some serious culture clashes and attacks. Their areas of extreme poverty are also as bad, if not worse than ours.

Figures lie, and liars figure.........
 
Firearm Deaths should be Divided

into criminal on criminal,
domestic violence,
defensive, and
criminal on innocent.
Obviously, only the last category is the important one.
Good luck.
 
Consider the fact that Britain has "reduced" crime statistics in the simplest way possible, they aren't arresting people for what they consider "minor crimes" like burglary, simple assault, and B&E. THAT certainly "takes a bite out of" the crime rate.

It's simplistic to believe that criminals will stop killing if guns aren't available. They kill to make money, protect territory, and discourage competition. Some just kill because they like it. WHY would they stop?

Percentages of population are routinely skewed by governments looking to improve images. The smaller the population, the fewer numbers to change to reduce whatever rate you see.
 
Gun control only reduces the number of crimes and murders committed using firearms … it doesn’t reduce the numbers of crimes and murders that are committed. The only difference is the tool used.

I wouldn’t bother arguing with him. Our crime statistics are recorded differently and you therefore can’t compare like with like. He is also probably prejudiced against gun ownership anyway. We have a lot of idiots like him over here who think the Police will always be on hand to protect him.

Personally I would be more bothered about Americans who repel the 2nd Amendment and don’t appreciate the sacrifice your ancestors made to provide them with a legal and ligament right to defend themselves, and their loved ones using a firearm. That to me just doesn’t make any sense. Maybe, if like me, they didn’t have that right, they may appreciate it more.

BTW … any of the stories you’ve about banning kitchen cutlery is just crap. Just because some Doctors want to blunt the ends of caving knives doesn’t mean it will happen. You can carry a pocketknife with a 3-inch blade legally in the UK. Many of your states have the same knife laws.
 
The stats used by anti-gunners are skewed in order to give weight to their agenda. The best thing you could do is research stats from the Uniform Crime Report posted by the FBI. Another source you could use is the Brits own Scotland Yard stats. Their gun crimes have escalated since their 1997 nationwide gun ban. Maybe you should ask him about those facts presented by Scotland Yard.
 
Our non-firearm related murder rate is also higher than their non-firearm related murder rate.

I totally forgot about this statistic. It holds up for most European countries, IIRC, not just the UK.
 
Your Brits argument is based upon a logical fallacy that assumes that every gun homicide would be prevented if guns were not present. This is a false assumption and is in fact totally illogical as it ignores the issue of substitution. Murder (a prime subset of all homicides) is, by definition, an intentional act. When one tool is unavailable, generally another tool will be employed to accomplish the intended result. However, this is not a one to one relationship, as other factors come into play. Firstly, one of the advantages of firearms is their comparative lethality compared to other methods. You can expect more victims to survive a club attack as opposed to a gun attack. Thus, everything else being equal, you can guess that there would be more "succesful" homicides in countries that have more guns in private hands. This is offset by the deterance factor as some perps will decide not to attack in the first place if they fear their intended victim may be armed. Thus, in countries with strict gun control, you might find a greater number of attempted homicides... with the net result in overall homicides being almost a wash.

This is in fact the experience of Countries which have introduced strict gun control. One need only take a look at the Brits themselves. Modern gun control in the UK had its inception in the aftermath of WWI. Although sold to the public as a measure of crime control, the over riding reason for the passage was the revolution in Russia. The Lords and Lordettes were deathly afraid of a repeat in the UK and thus was born the Firearms Act of 1920. So what was the homicide rate in the UK prior to the passage of the Firearms Act? Take a look at the historical trend in the UK from 1857 to 1993 available here:

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Data/England/English homicide rates/

The most current rate (2004 UN stats) for England and Wales is 1.6/100,00 (Scotland is 2.6 and Northern Ireland is 2.4) ... so almost double the rates that prevailed in the 15 year period prior to the Firearms Act of 1920.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/IHS-rates-05012009.pdf

Your Brit makes a cross cultural statistical argument based solely upon homicide rates between the US and the UK and finding a correlation, he assumes causation. If gun availability were truly a causative factor, then a comparison of countries other than the US should provide similar results. In fact it does not. See, Don B. Kates & Gary Mauser, Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide: A Review of International Evidence, 30 HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & PUBLIC POLICY 651 (2007) available for download here:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998893

Another issue your Brit does not even consider is whether gun control laws could possibly be effective in the USA. For a powerful argument that they would not be, see, Nicholas J. Johnson, IMAGINING GUN CONTROL IN AMERICA:UNDERSTANDING THE REMAINDER PROBLEM, 48 Wake Forest Law Review 837 (2009) available here:

http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf
 
You could also point out that Americans murder each other by beating, kicking and stomping each other to death more often than the English kill each other by all means combined; ask him when he got his permit for his arms and legs.
So true and funny if it wasn't so sad. You made my night man, I just :D
But anyways, you take the guns away, people will use knives or baseball bats. I personally would rather die by a gun than the other two, and I am serious about that. :evil:
 
You may also want to look at statistics for some of the asian countries like Thailand. I hear, second hand, that the violent crime rate is very high yet guns are completely banned. Most attacks are by hand, knife and other implements. Would be interesting to see stats on this too.

There's also the practical question of gun control management. England has banned them for a very long time and it's a freakin island the size of [insert U.S. state here]. The history of the U.S. relative to gun ownership and the size of the nation would make it completely impossible to manage. I'm not arguing that it's ok to ban guns, I'm just stating the fact that you just couldn't do it even if it did reduce crime rates.

Finally, point to states like Tx and Fl where crime rates have decreased since gun carry laws were enacted!
 
I don't argue with them

Rather I start asking how they like their mandated plastic beer mugs

and how long did you have to wait for your purchase license for your new set of kitchen knives,

I have to take a break, I'm laughing too hard.

and then point out this nasty little thingy that British anits hate to look at

CRIME HAS INCREASED IN BRITTAN
like the cops used to make do with a bobby stick, now they are all packing?????
the only people left with gun seem to be the criminals, and now the cops have to pack, used to be that British cops never expected to need a gun.
 
Don't forget that the UK also reports stats differently. Their official stats only count convictions. So, if murder is pleaded down to something else it doesn't go on the records as murder. If somebody comitts murder and gets off, it doesn't go on the record.

Comparing statistics from country to country is hard. You have to know how each country records their data.
 
Yeah and the more you read about the crime stats in Brittan the more I come convinced that they are as bad as US politician poll numbers, maybe in the general area, but twisted by everybody.

I personally like the parts where the London times or examiner was accusing a police department of not responding to calls to make their numbers look better a while ago.
 
Vermont has had the least restrictive gun laws in the United States and has had a murder rate (all types) of about 1 to 2 per 100,000 population per year, often less than the murder rate (all types) in England.

What actually counts in measuring effect of gun laws on crime in England is the before and after in England. Colin Greenwood, Firearms Control, (Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1972):
"No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the
conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when
there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal
or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm withoutout restriction. Half
a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a
far greater use of this class of weapon in crime than ever before."
That was Colin Greenwood, Superintendent, West Yorkshire Metropolitan Police, writing in 1972 about the effects of half a century of UK gun control from the 1920 British Firearms Act to the 1968 Gun Control Act.
 
...a logical fallacy that assumes that every gun homicide would be prevented if guns were not present...

American criminologist Marvin Wolfgang, who loathed guns personally, studied 588 homicides going into background of murder, background of victim, relationship of murderer and victim, circumstances of the crime, and concluded that few homicides due to shooting could be avoided merely if the firearm were not present.

The gun is a means, it is not the actor, it is not the motivation, it is not the opportunity, it is the least of the four factors, and for an actor with the motive and opportunity, the means is the least important.

On the other hand, most of the successful self-defenses I have known personally or read in the papers, many of which may have prevented murder by beating, stabbing, stomping, multiple assailants, etc, involved a defender using a gun, mostly by threatening to shoot.
 
and when you point that out, be ready to get accused of the slippery slope, when you point out that knives and blunt instruments are just as deadly as a gun, actually had someone tell me that it is better for a person to be maimed and disabled for life than have a gun used in the same exact crime.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top