Gun Control and the War on Drugs - A. Gregory

[Glock Glockler]

Rabbi,

So long as I don't infringe on the rights of anyone else I can do whatever I like to my car.

I can hit my car with a baseball bat, I can shoot it, and can have my dog scent mark it, I can invite Hillary Clinton over to sleep in it after doing all of the above.

My right to harm myself comes from that fact that I won my body and no one else owns it.

 

[The Rabbi]

But what I found was that only one study concluded that alcoholism went down during Prohibition. Some concluded that it went up, and I don't believe those either. I don't think it had much effect, other than to enrich gangsters and make otherwise law-abiding people into criminals.

I dont know about alcohol use. I dont think it is a good comparison for the WoD because alcohol was legal, and a deeply embedded part of life, in the country for hundreds of years prior. George Washington handed out rum and beer in his campaign. Narcotics have never had that same status. Thats probably why I dont see marijuana getting legalized or even decriminalized any time soon.

As far as the government's right to regulate: they obviously think they have the justification and no court has disagreed.

 

[publius]

The 9th disagreed in Stewart, and in Raich. Those cases are before the Supreme Court.

Are you on the side of the big government gun grabbers, or on the side of the cannabis growers? There are no other viable sides, so you've got to pick one.

 

[davec]

I dont know about alcohol use. I dont think it is a good comparison for the WoD because alcohol was legal, and a deeply embedded part of life, in the country for hundreds of years prior. George Washington handed out rum and beer in his campaign. Narcotics have never had that same status. Thats probably why I dont see marijuana getting legalized or even decriminalized any time soon.

What are you talking about? Narcotics were just as much a part of everyday life in America as liquor was.

And George Washington and Thomas Jefferon both grew a hemp crop. While their use was mainly industrial, i think we'd just be self delisional if we pretend they didnt know about or understand the...more madicinal uses...of the plant. In fact they talk about it in some of their writings.

 

[Yowza]

Quote:
3. My point was that God clearly does not want us to kill ourselves. God is all-powerful, and therefore could stop it. He does not.


That of course ignores Free Will, something Jefferson was intimately familiar with.

Now I've heard everything. That's not ignoring free will, that IS free will, Rabbi.

Rick

 

[The Rabbi]

Are you on the side of the big government gun grabbers, or on the side of the cannabis growers? There are no other viable sides, so you've got to pick one.

Are you on the side of the government or on the side of the child pornographers? You've got to pick.

 

[Gordon Fink]

And there is alcoholism and alcohol consumption, which are very different things.

Much like how drug abuse and drug use are very different things.

~G. Fink

Notice how Coca-Cola was a “temperance” drink?

 

[publius]

Are you on the side of the government or on the side of the child pornographers?

That's not an answer, it's a question. If you'll cite the case(s) you are talking about, and how they are relevant to gun/drug laws, I'll answer your question. Since I've already done those things, how about answering mine?

 

[The Rabbi]

If you'll cite the case(s) you are talking about, and how they are relevant to gun/drug laws, I'll answer your question.

US vs. McCoy. It was in the link to Stewart you provided.

 

[publius]

Oh, so you're asking if I think that the possession of child porn substantially affects interstate commerce? No, I don't. I don't think that kind of censorship should be on the federal agenda. I've got no problem with states protecting children by making that stuff illegal, but I don't think that it is wise or necessary to leave that sort of police power in the hands of the feds.

Madison, from Federalist 14:

In the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any. The subordinate governments, which can extend their care to all those other subjects which can be separately provided for, will retain their due authority and activity.

Is child porn necessarily a national issue, where we must have one size fit all, or can it be handled by the states? Is the possession of child porn something which can substantially affect interstate commerce, triggering the need for Congressional authority in that area?

I don't think so, any more than I think that a homegrown machine gun (or cannabis plant) for personal consumption has that kind of effect on interstate commerce.

Now that I've answered, will you?

 

[The Rabbi]

Do I think the Federal gov't has the power to regulate these things? Yes, probably. Do they have an obligation to do so? Not necessarily.

 

[The Rabbi]

What are you talking about? Narcotics were just as much a part of everyday life in America as liquor was.

Yes, I remember reading about Jefferson handing around joints at his inauguration.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Rabbi,

I answered your comment about my car, feel free to respond any time.

 

[Sindawe]

Yes, I remember reading about Jefferson handing around joints at his inauguration.

I direction your attention to the diary of one Mr. George Washington, dated Aug 7, 1765.

7. Began to separate the Male from the Female hemp at Do--rather too late.
- http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit(mgw1b651))

The only reason that one would separate male from female hemp plants is to keep the females from becoming fertilized by the male flowers and going to seed, thereby improving the yield and quality of the female flowers. When growing for seed or its oil, fertilization is required. When grown for fiber, hemp is generally planted close together to insure a tall lanky plant with long fibers in the main stalk. Seperation of male and female plants is generally not required, although some hold that male plants are better for fiber production.

Joints? I doubt that, IIRC the principal means of tobacco consumption at the time was in clay pipes and the like. I rather suspect that those learned men were well aware of all the properties of the hemp plant, and the utilization of them.

 

[The Rabbi]

Joints? I doubt that, IIRC the principal means of tobacco consumption at the time was in clay pipes and the like. I rather suspect that those learned men were well aware of all the properties of the hemp plant, and utilized them.

Do you have any refs to this?

 

[mercedesrules]

BTW, they felt it necessary to amend the constitution to outlaw "the manufacture, sale, or transportation" of alcohol.

(Purchase and most possession was not criminal.)

 

[Sindawe]

Do you have any refs to this?

Certainly

http://www.keyschool.org/londontown/Pages/Pages/pipe.html

http://www.apva.org/exhibit/pipedate.html

 

[mercedesrules]

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 

[publius]

Do I think the Federal gov't has the power to regulate these things? Yes, probably. Do they have an obligation to do so? Not necessarily.

Actually, they must have both the power AND the necessity to act. See Article 1, Section 8, toward the end (the "necessary and proper" clause). That means that if a law is not necessary, they should not make it.

In any case, if they "probably" have the power to regulate cannabis under the commerce clause, that precedent will "probably" be carried over to the regulation of firearms, per the Justice Department's request in the Stewart cert petition. Funny how gun grabbers are always following in the trails blazed by drug warriors, isn't it? On the use of tax authority to create a new police power, on the use of commerce authority to do the same, and more recently, on the use of civil asset forfeiture laws to punish crimes, it's the same old story. Wait for the drug warriors to establish a precedent, then turn it against guns.

When are you guys going to stop handing the enemy ammunition?

 

[Justin]

I answered your comment about my car, feel free to respond any time.

Glock Glockler, that's not very likely. After all I have, thus far, posted more than once in this thread seven points with regard to how the WoD specifically affects those who do not partake in the use of illicit recreational drugs. Despite being posted and linked multiple times The Rabbi, nor anyone else, has seen fit to try to refute those points or even justify why they aren't that big of a deal.

I will, once again, put a link in this post.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1708520&postcount=47

 

[The Rabbi]

Some folks just wont be persuaded, Justin. Your points are wrong factually and logically and negligible. Might as well talk to my keyboard.

Sindawe, very cute. About the level I would expect.

 

[Sindawe]

Excuse me? Did you NOT ask for references to clay pipes in Colonial America?

On Edit: I think I see what you were asking about Rabbi. I had typed "utilized them" when I was thinking "utilization of them". I was not implying that they consumed hemp flowers. I've corrected the original post.

Of course, if you are willing to investigate the possibility of such, here is a starting point for ya, http://www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/180/highsociety.html#38

 

[publius]

The only reason that one would separate male from female hemp plants is to keep the females from becoming fertilized by the male flowers and going to seed, thereby improving the yield and quality of the female flowers.

Not true. There is another reason one might do that. To control which plants get to breed with which others. There may even be other reasons, I don't know. I'm not a hemp farmer, but I am a farmer, and we're very interested in controlling all aspects of breeding in virtually all plants (and animals).

 

[Justin]

Some folks just wont be persuaded, Justin.

Do tell.

Your points are wrong factually and logically and negligible. Might as well talk to my keyboard.

Really? How so? Perhaps you should enlighten me. Or at the very least you could always crush me in rational debate, and point out how you used your |_337 skillz to totally pwn me.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Well this thread gets a thumbs up from me!

Can anyone get a straight answer from the Rabbi ? Mods if that's outta line, I understand but 'tis true...

Besides not being able to tell if the Rabbi is playing devil's advocate or not, I have learned heap in this one! Guys keep it comin'