Gun death statistic

[Constrictor]

Ive been having this conversation with some anti friends and I said if you look at the gun deaths per gun existing in America we are way low. especially since the antis seem to think guns kill, not bad people with guns. Im looking for a statistic that shows how many gun deaths per gun in America and am not finding anything. might just have to take the numbers and do my own math.

 

[ATLDave]

Because there is no federal registry of guns, there is no official total of the number of guns in America. You will find various estimates, though, and most of them will be in about the same range as number of people in America. You will then have to do your own math.

Which I have done several times in debates/discussions with people. You're on a good argumentative path.

And remember that the MAJORITY of "gun deaths" are actual suicide. Gun homicides run a little over 10k per year, while suicides add another 20k or thereabouts.

 

[ATLDave]

Further avenues for you to explore:

Correlation between gun ownership rates by state and gun homicide rates by state (many years, this correlation is moderately NEGATIVE, due to several high-gun states like WY or MT having low murder rates).

Correlation, or lack of same, between European gun ownership rates and European murder rates. Some of the Euro countries with higher murder rates have some of the lowest firearm ownership rates, and vice versa.

After looking at this issue many different ways over some time, I concluded that there is a high fraction of the population that can be exposed to an endless quantity of guns without becoming murderers, and then a much smaller fraction (which varies based on culture, poverty, and other factors) who will be violent irrespective of regulations such as gun control.

 

[stchman]

Pro 2A people actually have anti 2A friends?

Problem with the "statistics" is that suicides and accidental deaths are alo lumped into the mix.

There are more firearm related deaths from suicide that homicide, but the antis don't want to hear that.

What I can tell you is that in 1993, the intentional homicide rate in the USA was about 9.5 per 100K and as of 2013 that rate has dropped to 3.8 per 100K. The link below is goo until 2012, 2013 is 3.8. I will be interested to see the 2015 statistics when they are released.

With all this being said, CCWs, firearms ownership, and firearms usage is at an all time high in the USA. With the way the keft is talking, our homicide rate should be like Honduras.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

 

[FL-NC]

To keep it interesting, understand that the following are usually included in "gun death figures:

1. Police officers in the performance of their duties
2. Civilians exercising their right to self defense
3. Suicides (I don't believe that someone who wants to die will call it off if they lack a firearm)
4. Accidents, of various types

 

[Librarian]

The combination of CDC WISQARS and FBI/UCR data will get the numbers of firearms-related deaths.

But as noted, nobody actually knows the number of guns in civilian hands in the US.

 

[230RN]

This is a little dated and (of course) "Our-Sided," but is a fairly good starting tool to counteract a lot of the "Their-Sided" propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

No doubt challengeable on some minor issues, but good for a "you get my point" message.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Jackal]

Here's a link to the CDC stats. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

The CDC statistics paint a very racially charged picture, with black Americans making up about 14% of the population and committing about 55% of gun homocides. Kind of crazy, enlightening and scary... Gang violence is a REAL threat to America, far more so than terrorism, using deaths as a measuring device.

 

[Dejavu]

I'm glad someone posted this Bill Whittle video correlating gun ownership numbers and murder rates by country.

 

[Warp]

Ive been having this conversation with some anti friends and I said if you look at the gun deaths per gun existing in America we are way low. especially since the antis seem to think guns kill, not bad people with guns. Im looking for a statistic that shows how many gun deaths per gun in America and am not finding anything. might just have to take the numbers and do my own math.

Pay particular attention to suicides when somebody uses "gun deaths". Often certain people will use a term like "gun deaths" or "gun homicides", talk about murders and shootings, but hope you don't realize the bulk of the number they are using is actually suicides.

And that of the murders or manslaughter, the bulk of those are young black males in large urban areas often associated with gang activity.

 

[denton]

Information here might be helpful:

https://notsofast2015.wordpress.com/

 

[tuj]

just an FYI, according to many there are roughly 300 - 330 million functional guns in the USA. That is roughly the same as the number of people. I take this from Winkler et al.

the problem with arguing with the anti's or whatever you call them, is that the USA is fundamentally different in culture and values than Europe or Australia, which are usually used as comparisons. There are simply way too many more guns in the USA to make any meaningful comparisons.

 

[Old Shooter]

#1: When I go into gun shops I see dozens or hundreds of rifles, shotguns and handguns on the racks or in the showcases. Nationwide this probably relates to millions of weapons sitting on the store shelves. Do these guns count as the hundreds of millions of guns in "circulation"?
#2: How many of the gun deaths they quote are gang related, banger on banger, and should these count at all in the gun death statistics as to guns are good or bad?

 

[Warp]

just an FYI, according to many there are roughly 300 - 330 million functional guns in the USA. That is roughly the same as the number of people. I take this from Winkler et al.

the problem with arguing with the anti's or whatever you call them, is that the USA is fundamentally different in culture and values than Europe or Australia, which are usually used as comparisons. There are simply way too many more guns in the USA to make any meaningful comparisons.

The US is also fundamentally different in demographics.

 

[Constrictor]

I just want to make it simple. The antis say guns kill people. If I do the math correctly even with suicide and accidents there are about 1 in 8 million gun deaths per gun.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Some time ago there was a link to a site on a sailing forum to which I belong that had a ranking of homicides per 1000. The US was way down the list with a bunch of countries (mostly 3rd world) where it is not even legal for civilians to own firearms leading the way.

 

[Bula]

And the there is this:

http://youtu.be/pELwCqz2JfE

 

[denton]

Once, at dinner with friends in Sweden, I simply stated that the United States is not a particularly violent country. They were incredulous. We have been carefully taught that we are among the most violent of countries. And it's a lie.

The US is in the middle of the pack. Russia has far more murders per 100,000 than the US. Japan has far fewer. Some of the most violent countries on the planet do not have the resources to report murders. And I suspect that Russia is cooking their books, since their figures took a sudden, unexplained dive a few years ago.

Also, you cannot easily directly compare murder rates from country to country. In the UK, it doesn't count as a murder until someone is convicted, vs. in the US it's a murder of the police and ME say so.

Malaysia has an automatic death penalty for possession of a firearm and a single round of ammunition. Yet their murder rate is about the same as my home state, which is practically awash in firearms.

 

[230RN]

Bula, thanks for posting that link to the Bill Whittle video again. Good reminder.


Terry

 

[Pushrod]

Here is a good rebuttal of the left's anti-gun numbers by Steven Crowder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IULSD8VwXEs

 

[montgomery381]

I think this table could be useful.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Be careful how you argue. If the friends are smart, they'll point out that most people who own guns own more than one, so of course the number of deaths per gun are low; a collector with a hundred guns will likely be [at most] responsible for one or two deaths (to be very morbidly blunt). What I'm trying to say is that number of deaths per gun is kind of a meaningless (or worse, misleading) figure when applied to the US because of their uneven distribution. Number of gun deaths per gun owner is a more useful statistic to compare.

And although no one asked, here's how I argue when someone tries to compare the US to other countries:

1) Self defense is an inalienable right, and I believe that all people should be granted the means to effectively defend themselves
2) If all guns disappeared from the world today, effective self defense would still be relevant due to the inherent existence of crimes such as assault and rape. Thus, gun ownership for self defense is universally relevant.
3) [Speaking to an anti] You believe that private gun ownership causes a higher overall rate of murder. While I could argue with that, I'll go ahead and give it to you- sure, for the sake of argument let's assume guns cause the murder rate to be higher. Why is a slightly (at most) higher murder rate (as opposed to the murder rate if all guns disappeared) more concerning to you than a loss of everyone's universal right to self defense?

 

[Warp]

Be careful how you argue. If the friends are smart, they'll point out that most people who own guns own more than one, so of course the number of deaths per gun are low; a collector with a hundred guns will likely be [at most] responsible for one or two deaths (to be very morbidly blunt). What I'm trying to say is that number of deaths per gun is kind of a meaningless (or worse, misleading) figure when applied to the US because of their uneven distribution. Number of gun deaths per gun owner is a more useful statistic to compare.

Somewhere around about 50% of homes in the US have a gun.

And some individuals and some guns are responsible for more than one death.

Annnd if you look at the FBI UCR facts and figures for murder perpetrators you'll see a pattern

 

[MachIVshooter]

The current estimates are 250-300 million guns in the hands of 80-85 million gun owners.

Murder rates are running 12,000-15,000 annually these days, about 70% of which are firearm homicides, so 8500-10,500.

Now, if you include accidental, justifiable and suicide, the number of firearm deaths more than triples to around 32,000-35,000 annually. The extreme majority of that increase is suicide; 20,000-22,000. Accidental firearm deaths vary more than the other numbers, but have usually been fewer than 1,000 annually.

So, if we drop suicides and justifiable homicides (very negligible number), assume 10,000 firearm homicides (higher than current average) as well as a relatively high 1,000 accidental deaths, and go with the lower estimates on gun owners and guns, that'd be 11,000 murder and accident firearm deaths for 80 million gun owners with 200 million guns, or .0138% of gun owners and .0044% of guns. This, of course, also assumes one victim per gun and gun owner. We know that's oversimplified in the extreme. We also know that legal gun owners account for a minuscule percentage of gun crime. The reality is that, when talking legal gun owners, we need to move the decimal a couple more spots to the left.

 

[Njal Thorgeirsson]

Somewhere around about 50% of homes in the US have a gun.

That would mean that the average US gun owner has two guns. I think the average gun owner in most European countries would own closer to one gun on average. Right off the bat that cuts the murders per gun in half for the US gun owners, assuming all other variables are equal. It does tip the odds in favor of the pro-US-gun-ownership side, but it is misleading.