Gun makers copying off each other.

[stchman]

I got into a discussion with a friend of mine and he said Ruger just blatantly copied Kel Tec's P3AT.

He thinks that Ruger is the only one that copies firearm ideas from other companies.

I maintain that firearms makers copy off each other all the time.

Ruger copied Kel Tecl with the P3AT
Volquartsen copied Ruger with their 10/22 clone.
Numerous manufacturers have copied the Remington 870
Smith & Wesson copied Glock with the Sigma
Smith & Wesson copied Taurus with their Governor
Taurus copied Beretta with their PT92
Beretta took the design of the 92F from the Walther P38
Walther took some of Glock's ideas for the PPS
Glock took ideas from the Hi-Power in its design.

We won't even get into the numerous AR and 1911 clones out there.

I am sure there are MANY other examples I am unaware of.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

It's happened for hundreds of years. Gun makers copied each others styles in the 1700's as the Pennsylvania and Virginia and Kentucky rifle patterns. Hawken Bros. got their ideas from eastern half stock rifles, etc. Handgun makers would incorporate newer designs as they came out.

Same as the car, first someone had 4 wheels and an engine. The rest saw the benefit of it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Yes and no.

• There will always be similarities between different model guns (cars, can openers, hand drills, pens, etc.). They are devices intended to be used by humans, and humans have certain shared anatomical characteristics which decide how guns (or other things) will conveniently be used.
  
  
• All guns operate in roughly the same way. There needs to be a way to somehow release mechanically stored energy (a hammer or a striker held against spring tension) so something will hit a primer causing a propellant in a cartridge to ignite, create pressure which will force a bullet down a barrel, etc.
  
  
• Since all guns operate roughly the same way there are certain general, mechanical features they must all share. There must be a way to contain the pressure developed by the burning propellant in the cartridge. There must be a way to allow that pressure to build to increase projectile velocity. Mechanical parts are needed to load, fire and unload the gun.
  
  
• But there are patents which protect from unauthorized use new and novel ways of accomplishing various necessary mechanical tasks. As a result --
  
  
  • Glock sued Smith & Wesson over the design of the Sigma claiming patent infringement. Glock was able to force a settlement in which Smith & Wesson had to make some changes to the design of the Sigma and pay some money to Glock.
    
    
  • There are some similarities between certain Taurus and Beretta pistols. Beretta had a factory in Sao Paulo, Brazil to manufacture firearms under contract for the Brazilian military. When those contracts expired, Taurus bought that factory from Beretta along with the tooling and rights to manufacture certain pistols in Brazil.
    
    
  • There are some similarities between certain Taurus and Smith & Wesson revolvers. At one time Smith & Wesson's parent corporation bought a controlling interest in Taurus. Taurus and Smith & Wesson shared design and manufacturing information (and rights). Taurus was later spun off.
    
    
  • Patents expire and then other companies are free to use previously restricted solutions to mechanical problems. This is common in all industries.

 

[Delmar]

The US government had to pay royalties for the manufacture of the 1903 Springfield rifle.

There is a whole lot of companies who copied Browning's design for a locked breech dropping barrel semi automatic pistol. Some adopted the Petter system of locking the barrel to the slide by the breech block instead of using barrel lugs, which was technically an improvement to the basic Browning action.

 

[Plan2Live]

I've heard that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It's a lot more fair to say that they borrow inspirations, ideas or concepts from each other. Don't tell me, for example, that the LCP , especially a new-generation one with improved trigger (shorter and smoother stroke) and sights, is a copy of the P3AT.

 

[vamo]

It happens in pretty much every industry. I don't see why its something to get worked up about at all. When a design I like starts getting copied that makes me happy, it might mean someone will do it better and or cheaper.

And what constitues a knock off, how similiar does it have to be? Is every revolver out there just a knock off of the peacemaker? I realize I'm using an extreme example, but hey the revolver was revolutionary (no pun intended) how dare all these other companies copy Samuel Colt!

My point it is nearly every gun and every piece of technology you would like that use was probably copied in one way or another. Buy what you like at the price you can afford, if its not different enough to patent then its not different enough for me to buy on the simple basis that they were first.

If I were in the market for a pocket .380 I'd probably go for a TCP which is a who are they even kidding discount LCP.

 

[CraigC]

Nearly everything that exists was either based on or inspired by something that already existed. IMHO, there's way too much whining that goes on about the Ruger LCP. Firstly, it is not a direct copy. Secondly, it is a higher quality firearm but offered at a similar price point. Ruger just happens to build a better KelTec than KelTec does and more of them. Big deal. Nobody complains about all the myriad 1911's, AR's or SAA's. Not to mention all the polymer framed autos that aren't Glocks.

 

[FROGO207]

Just because it looks nearly the same and spits a bullet out does not mean it is the same item. Unless you patent the look/style/exact process of something another can make a similar item without penalty. Or just wait for the patent to expire and copy away. As long as parts do not drop in directly as a copy or be made out of a proprietary material/process that is under patent a similar item would be hard to sue over rights for. Just sayin.

 

[earlthegoat2]

For some reason Ruger is always the first company to get spun into these "Everyone copies everyone" threads. It is nothing new and if there were any copyright or patent infringements then there would be lawsuits. As it is there is little left to copyright or patent unless you count the every increasing and ever silly new proprietary cartridges companies are coming out with. And those are just laughable.

Ruger is proven to be more adept at reading the market and providing a quality product for that market at a reasonable price rather than being firearms innovators. At least on the surface. There are many innovations Ruger has added to these so called copycat guns. Usually involving less parts and simplicity of action.

"mechanically speaking, there are only so many ways of sending a bullet down a barrel." -- M-Cameron; March 17, 2012 in a similar thread as this.

 

[mac66]

The Kel Tec design has been copied by a plethora of companies once it was learned they had no patent on it. Some former employees spun off the design with the Diamondback, as well as two or three other companies. Ruger and Tauras each got into the mix as well. Kel Tec should have protected themselves but they didn't.

Most other copies of other guns are either the result of the patents ending or agreements/partnerships between companies or different country's arm manufactures as was mentioned.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

This is sort of like how all the car companies copy each other, house builders copy each other, TV companies copy each other....pretty much any common consumer product with multiple manufacturers could be said to be copying somebody else.

Wheels...ever noticed how they are all round?

 

[shooter1niner]

Dog eat dog...

 

[wojownik]

Samsung and Apple - tablets and smartphones copycat wars ... it happens in every industry. Protecting intellectual property (designs, etc...) can be an expensive business. A patent or copyright (assuming one is even registered) is only as good as the willingness and ability to defend it.

Copying (or taking inspiration from) another manufacturers design goes right back to the dawn of time (how many armies of antiquity were inspired by sword, lance and bow innovations of their neighbors ...).

Then there is the question of near genetic cloning of someone elses' design, including proprietary features.

Those CZ/TZ clones of Sig pistols were always so close - at least cosmetically - I always wondered why Sig Sauer did not take some kind of action. And the NP-22 Norinco clone, which was an egregious copycat of the Sig p226.

 

[Zach S]

Taurus copied Beretta with their PT92

Not exactly...

Beretta sold their Brazilian facility, and everything in it, to Taurus. This included all the tooling, machinery, drawings, and the already experienced employee roster.

Having been in their situation, the employees may not have cared or even noticed.

 

[Tommygunn]

It's happened for hundreds of years. Gun makers copied each others styles in the 1700's as the Pennsylvania and Virginia and Kentucky rifle patterns. Hawken Bros. got their ideas from eastern half stock rifles, etc. Handgun makers would incorporate newer designs as they came out.

Same as the car, first someone had 4 wheels and an engine. The rest saw the benefit of it.

Yes. There was a company called IIRC, Manhattan Arms that copied the early Colt percussion revolvers like the 1849 and 1851, except they made them double action.
Plus we ought to consider the Confederacy during the Civil War; they copied the Colt revolver -- in fact more than one company did. They also copied the north's Whitney Navy as the Spiller & Burr.
I believe they also copied the Sharp's rifles, or carbines.
All this, really, probably out of necessity than anything -- they needed the weapons as fast as they could get 'em off the production line.

 

[HankB]

The whole idea of patents is to advance technology and invention for EVERYONE.

Giving the original inventor exclusive rights for only a limited amount of time is meant to give people an incentive to invent - with the assumption that after the patent expires and the inventor has been able to make a fair profit, everyone will benefit by being able to make the improved item.

In fact, the expectation is that the text and drawings on a patent will "TEACH" the salient facts about the invention.

So it's no wonder that gun designs will be copied. Even governments do it - for a time the USA was paying royalties to Mauser because the 1903 Springfield Rifle infringed on Mauser's patents, making it in some ways a COPY!

 

[Tirod]

It is, in fact, the Great American Way to copy a successful product line and offer your version for sale. Rolex did a nice job with their take on an Dive rated underwater watch, and the Submariner is likely the world's most copied.

That doesn't mean the copied product is necessarily the best version or optimally priced. Said Rolex Submariner is typically priced from $8,000 up for the later models, but the robotically assembled works are generally comparable to the average $500 movement. It's certified as a chronometer, but it's not tested as a Dive model to pressure proving it can take it. A $250 Seiko Dive model is - moot point, most divers wear a digital specially designed to signal air consumption.

Do the two watches share the same features? In many ways - luminous markers and hands, jeweled movements, auto wind, rotating bezel. If both have black dials and similar bands, they could appear substantially similar. But it's the shared features that make the most of the comparison, and those were all being used by makers back to the dawn of diving with air tanks. Like six shot revolvers, there is a high degree of similarity. But a Chiappa vs Webley comparison would tend to show the differences beyond the looks. Rolex makes a nice watch - but for the money, you aren't buying it for it's function.

It's the casual external observer who sees a "copy." Same as the antigunners seeing all AR15's as fully automatic machineguns only good for killing babies. The less the observer knows about the technology, the more it seems to be a copy.

Of course, then, there are just blatant copies, too. Like, Maxpedition copying other designs of web gear, even Mission knives. That's when the Intellectual Property flags are thrown by some, and the conversations get quickly out of hand.

What constitutes making a copy is hard to judge, as each individual takes their own view of where the line is crossed. In the law, it's whether a patent or proprietary concept is being proven to be illegally abused. It's up in the air whether that is happening when the originator makes no effort to protect his rights. On the other hand, there are .gov agencies who can take action, which is why we so rarely see copies of Submariners with Seiko quartz movements made in Korea that say "Rolex" on the dial.

And if we were honest, quite a few of us who remember them now wish we'd got one.

 

[HexHead]

This. KelTec failed to patent their design. Funny thing about Diamondback, though they looked like a Glock knock-off, they were sued by Kahr over the trigger design they used.

There's nothing new in firearms, with very few exceptions like the Rhino revolver and the Blaser rifle.