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Gun more likely to be used against a relative in the home?

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Hostile Amish

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Is it a myth that a firearm is more likely to be used against one of your own family members at your home than against an intruder? I was talking to the person next to me on a flight back to Houston, since there was nothing better to do, and the topic of guns came up. I asked him if he owned any guns, and he replied "No, there are no guns in my house." I said that I owned several guns, and that having a gun would be very useful just in case. To which he said "Did you know it's more likely that a gun is used against someone in your house than a robber? Doesn't seem worth it to me." or something to that effect.

It seems like many people think this is the truth. What are the real facts?
 
That quote is from a much discredited anti-gun report/study.

When your study group is in the hood and drug trafficing is a major factor, that statement might be true.

Otherwise it is total B.S.
 
The way they come up with this is unscientific. They simply look at the numbers and say "Look- more people commit suicide and are killed by family members than are killed in self defense."

They totally miss the logical errors in their statement.

Brawndo has electrolytes.
 
Yes it is a myth. The FBI recently reported that guns are used 2.5 million times per year to prevent crimes... the overwhelming majority of which did not result in a single shot fired. In contrast, there were give or take about 16K gun homocides in that same year (~32,000 gun deaths including suicides)... If the guy on the plane was right, we would have over 2.5 million gun deaths nationwide.

How many more lives were saved by the 2.5 million gun uses to prevent crime over the 16K times they were used to commit crime? Guns were used 156 times more often to prevent crime than to commit murder. As for suicides, I don't count those because a determined person will use anything to do the job.

But hey, what does the FBI know about crime right?


...
 
If you have to worry about your significant other shooting you, it may be time to kick out the significant other, rather than get rid of the guns.

I don't know the statistics, don't know if that's really true. I suspect that if it is true, it's mostly because a bunch of thugs who shouldn't have guns in the first place. Deshawn or Bubby J comes home with glitter on his collar smelling like 12 dollar a shot liquor, the baby's momma isn't happy, and someone gets shot.

Remember that guns don't kill people, it's husbands that come home early that kill people.
 
Yes it is a myth. The FBI recently reported that guns are used 2.5 million times per year to prevent crimes... the overwhelming majority of which did not result in a single shot fired. In contrast, there were give or take about 16K gun homocides in that same year (~32,000 gun deaths including suicides)...

I would love to see a source on this. Not because I don't believe it's true, but so I can rub it in someone's face.
 
That quote is from a much discredited anti-gun report/study.

That's the much derided Kellerman study which concluded that a "gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill someone in the home than a criminal" and has been thoroughly discredited. Not only did he cherry pick data, he made some of it up out of whole cloth. I believe he has actually withdrawn the paper. That said, Mark Twain's saying, "One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives" still rings true.

Do a search on "Kellerman study" and you'll find lots of information right here.
 
The answer is quite illusive actually. Yes, it is true that guns are used against family members/friends more than against criminals. But this isn't a simple if A=B and B=C than A=C formula. The odds of a gun owner confronting a criminal in the home is exponentially lower than confronting a family member or friend. Obviously, you see/meet family members and friends every day. But the stats that show "Friendly Fire" (Lack of a better term) with a weapon also includes accidents. Obviously, if you have 0 guns in the house, the chance of an accident or shooting a family member/friend is 0%. So, having a gun in the house OBVIOUSLY makes the chances go up. And because the chances of seeing/meeting a family member/friend are exponentially higher that running into a criminal; that percentage also goes up.

Here's where the stats get misleading. A gun is simply a tool. If there is a history or potential for domestic violence; then whatever tool is available can/will be used. If there was no gun in the house, the abuser would more than likely use their fist, knife, blunt object, etc... The problem is that a gun is somewhat permanent. The chance of death is much greater. This is also the argument many use with suicide. A gun in the house increases the chance of suicide. Granted, without a gun, a person may try committing suicide with drugs, slit wrist, etc... But in those cases, the chance of death are much lower. With a gun, the chance of death is much greater. So, while I hate to admit it; for some people; a gun definitely increases the chance of death in a home with "Friendly Fire". (Any gun shot not directed in self defense of person or property).

However; there is also more to this than just that. A community that is Known or more likely to be gun friendly and have citizens with guns, presents a variable that criminals take into consideration PRIOR to breaking into the house. They realize that there's a good chance that if anyone is home, they could get shot while committing their crime. Whereby; if guns were outlawed and NO Law Abiding citizen had a gun; then criminals would be much more willing to break into a home because they would know that there is little for them to fear from the victim.

There are also many other scenarios where positive results come about by having a gun for self defense. So while the anti-gun folks make be technically correct about the claim of no guns in the house would mean no "Friendly Fire" deaths; they aren't considering the potential deaths, rape, etc... by having victims that can't defend themselves. Also, the deaths by "Friendly Fire" would not go to 0. There would still be some deaths domestically; they just wouldn't be by a gun.

But these deaths, suicide, accidents, etc... are the corner stone by which MOST anti-gun advocates argue their point. It would be a great argument if it was a simple action-reaction scenario. But that's like saying we need to end ALL fossil fuel use in our country. It sounds good, but that creates a chain of events from workers in the USA losing their jobs in the drilling, transport, refining, etc... It affects the importers/exporters. It affects countries that ONLY have oil and similar as their main stay of their GDP; e.g. Saudi Arabia. Then those countries go into total recession/depression because they have no other source of income. They have civil war because of poverty/economics. They use WAR as a means to obtaining what they need/want. Which then involves other countries. etc.... Very little that changes 1 thing is an island unto itself. Something as simple, and to many seem obvious, such as banning all guns in the country (Assuming there's no need to protect ourselves from a dictatorship government); has an effect on human life, crime, economics, etc... As FACT, we know that we can build a car that is 100% capable of keeping it's occupants 100% safe and unharmed during an accident; which more people die in cars than from guns. HOWEVER; that car would cost approximately $100,000 to produce. Would people be willing to pay for such a gun? No, they wouldn't. When it comes to safety, many speak of how a "Human Life" is PRICELESS!!! Sorry, but it isn't priceless. We are a very cheap commodity. We can make more, quite easily. If we were priceless, we'd pay $100,000 for the perfect safe car; $1 Million for the AVERAGE home that was ACCIDENT proof; etc... So obviously, we do have a price on our lives. You have to look at the big picture when determining the cost of something. Some communities, it's probably very unlikely that a gun at home would EVER be needed. There are places where such crime is almost non-existent. But part of that reason is probably because of the guns being there. I.e. If a town has a 0.5% crime rate per year; and someone says "WE DON'T NEED GUNS, WE DON'T HAVE CRIME"; they could ban guns, but then the community's crime rate could jump to 5-10% because criminals know there won't be any resistance. It's a catch-22.
 
GunFacts.info has all the refutations needed for this type of discussion. Print the PDF and keep a copy in your carry-on baggage to give out to "anti-s" you get seated by.

Here is a quick point to consider: Guns are used for defense much more often than they are fired for defensive purposes. (Most of the time, the defender doesn't even have to fire.)

The corollary is that for a "gun-suicide", it actually has to be fired.
 
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I call it myth.

My wife and I can have the most knock down, drag out yelling match with neither one backing down and niether one of us has a single moment where we think about a gun. No.

The arguement or problem gets settled. NO thought of guns period.

We had a sitation recently where there might have been a need for weapons in our home as a defensive measure and my spouse asked me if I worried about guns with her when WE argued as husband and wife. I told her that thought never crosses the mind, just the problem.

With that I say that normal couples dont think or do guns in a normal everyday life, good or bad. Even in the most loudest and stiff necked stubborn yelling back and forth and table pounding does not a gun think of it.

Bottom line, we both solve the problem asap and move on to doing something else, like playing monopoly together or something.
 
Is it a myth that a firearm is more likely to be used against one of your own family members at your home than against an intruder
As stated, I would say, "no."

Everyone here seems to be making all kinds of assumptions that aren't in the original post.

Where in the question does it say anything about homicides, suicide or death at all? It only says "used against." Such a use could include brandishing, pistol whipping, warning shot, shooting at somebody but missing, shooting and injuring, etc.

The 2.5 million statistic that was posted here has nothing to do with the question posed. That statistic is for the prevention of crime in general. It has nothing to do with the use of a firearm against an intruder in one's home.

I can't say for sure, but my best guess is that there are more gun "uses" against family members than gun "uses" against home intruders.

The error in logic is made, however, when one uses that proposition as support for not having a gun in the house. It's not a cause/effect relationship. If I told you that more murders occur in houses with brick exteriors than in houses with vinyl siding, that doesn't mean you should avoid buying a brick house to keep from getting murdered.

For whatever reason, a large percentage of the population believe that access to a firearm will turn a law-abiding person into a criminal, as if the guns have some magical property that hypnotizes anyone nearby to kill with it.

I don't care if somebody came to me with a statistic that 99.9 percent of all guns in a household end up being used to kill a family member. All that means is that I live in a country with a ton of criminals. I'm confident in my lawful nature and my ability to responsibly own a firearm so I don't give a crap how irresponsible other people may be.
 
Yes it is a myth. The FBI recently reported that guns are used 2.5 million times per year to prevent crimes...

That was Gary Kleck at Florida State, back in 1991. (It's in his book Armed and parts of the study are in lots of places on the web.)

Although they didn't like the answer, Phillip Cook and Jens Ludwig, two anti-gun researchers, did the same kind of analysis on a different dataset and got very similar result.

See also Guncite for DGU, and again for the refutation of the 'used against family' myth, specifically Kellerman's 1986 '43-1' paper.
 
That's the much derided Kellerman study which concluded that a "gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill someone in the home than a criminal" and has been thoroughly discredited. Not only did he cherry pick data, he made some of it up out of whole cloth. I believe he has actually withdrawn the paper. That said, Mark Twain's saying, "One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives" still rings true.

Even if he didn't fudge the data, the premise is a false dichotomy.

Based on it, there is no differentiation between criminals and non criminals, only that there is "a gun in the house". So the stolen Glock under the pillow of a gang banger is equal to the Italian trap shotgun in the gunsafe of an accountant.

Further, the only time self defense counts in his study is if you KILL the intruder. In the vast majority of self defensive uses of guns the weapon isn't even discharged (and when it is, rarely does the criminal die).


Go here www.gunfacts.info ... the Kellerman study (along with most other anti gun myths) is thoroughly debunked (with resources footnoted).
 
I would love to see a source on this. Not because I don't believe it's true, but so I can rub it in someone's face.

Its called the 2007 Annual FBI Crime Report... Google will show you the way.

Also, gunfacts.info has some nice research in this area.


...
 
Their logic is flawed. They say that a gun is more likely to kill a family member than to kill an intruder, therefore you should get rid of your guns. This is like saying that your swimming pool is more likely to drown a family member than to drown an intruder, therefore you should get rid of your swimming pool.

In fact your pool is far more likely to kill a family member than your gun is, and the pool is even more useless as a self-defense tool.
 
I'm curious, what about the wife who suddenly realizes that the love of her life is an abuser and has to use a gun to end the abuse? That's a family member using a gun against another family member, but it is justified. How do you factor those into it.

Just a thought.
 
divemedic said:
Brawndo has electrolytes
What plants crave!
---
Blackbeard said:
more likely to kill a family member than to kill an intruder
What percentage of intruders could be considered family members, anyway?
Most crime is within a group, you are more likely to be burgled by family/friend or someone only once removed, primarily because they know what is in your house.
 
The answer to that is simple:

"I really feel sorry for you, knowing that someone in your home is likely to commit murder. Are you sure just not having a gun is enough? Suppose the person gets hold of a knife, or a can of gasoline. Maybe you should move out or have such a dangerous person committed."

I guarantee the reaction will be interesting.

Jim
 
So many myths so little time...........

Fact, published extensively and verified by the FBI etc

If you are going to be killed/assaulted in your own home it will, statistically, be most likely to be a relative or closely know individual and will usually be heat of the moment.

The assault will predominately be either physical (punch, kick etc) or with whatever is closest and easiest to hand, bludgeon, stab, cut,

If a firearm is closer to hand than a knife etc it will likely be used

If a firearm is NOT close to hand it will NOT be used....duhhhhh.

So, if an unsecured, uncontrolled firearm IS IN THE HOME AT THAT MOMENT AND AVAILBLE IT IS LIKELY TO BE USED.

That does NOT make the firearm more likely to be used than any other implement merely proves that if tool X is there is can be used, and if it isn't it can't.
 
The Kellerman study is a perfect example of how antis lie with statistics.

If you look at the 1st version of his "study" its the one with the 43:1 stat.

He basically looked at all the firearms deaths in King County Washington (where Seattle is) for one year and compared that to the number of intruders killed that year.

The first major attack on his study was to point out that he included suicides. When he re-released the study removing the suicides it altered the ratio down to 2.5:1 ... that still doesn't address the other logical and statistical flaws in his study.
 
Every progunner should be ready to counter this stat. It is from kellerman.

Talk about the College Park, GA self defense incident. Summary: Party with 5 couples. 2 invaders get in. After finding 10 people, invaders check to make sure they have enough ammo to kill all 10. They do. Invaders seperate the men from the women so they can rape the women. With only 1 invader watching (the other is getting ready to rape) a male student gets his gun out of his bag and a gunfight ensues. End result, 1 invader flees, 1 invader dies, 0 rapes, 0 murders, 1 minor wound from the gunfight to a partygoer.

Using Kellerman style, if the student would have left his gun in his bag, and all 10 would have been killed, that would be counted as '10 people killed in a home with a gun = guns in homes are dangerous'

Seems to me the analysis of guns in homes for danger should require that gun to play a part in the crime.

indeed, using the BEST CASE SCENARIO for Kellerman's study - that is assuming that all 'family member or intimate homicide' were committed by offenders living with the victim and using the gun from the victim's home - that only accounts for 34% of the incidents, so 66% of the 'stats' for a gun in the home putting you in danger are basing it on a gun that remains totally untouched during the crime. How Grandpa's gun being in a trunk in the attic is relevant when a cokehead breaks in and shoots the occupants is not clear to me.

A subsequent study, again by Kellermann, of fatal and non-fatal gunshot woundings, showed that only 14.2% of the shootings involving a gun whose origins were known, involved a gun kept in the home where the shooting occurred. Incidents of domestic violence, accidental discharge, and sucide are included in that number. Looking below at how many suicides there are compared to crimes tells me that at best 10% of 'gun killings shootings' are criminal homicides...which means only 1.4% of the case where the gun in the home is used for the crime involve an intruder coming in and using a gun, 13% involve a sucide/suicide attempt or abusive spouse, and 66% involve the killer bringing in his own gun while somewhere in the home of the victims some other gun is left sitting untouched.


Kellermann tabulated gunshot deaths occurring in King County, Washington, from 1978 to 1983, how meaningful is his ratio? Suicides 333, criminal homicide 41, accidental 12, unknown 3, = 389 vs 9 self-protection homicides = 43:1
Do that with non-gun police investigated deaths: Suicide 347, criminal homicide 50, accidental 0, unknown 0 = 397 vs 4 self-protection homicides = 90:1

Put another way, more martial artists are killed by attackers than successfully kill an attacker when defending themselves, does this mean it is unsafe to learn martial arts?

sucide inclusiton

Remove sucides and you get 2.4 accidental or criminal deaths by firearm per 1 self defense justifiable homicide. Also, no adjustment was made for those charged and found not-guilty by reason of self defense, they got counted as criminal deaths, same with those overturned on appeal. Again, spin back to College Park. 1 criminal was killed in a justifiable homicide. However, if no gun would have been present, you'd have had 10 students killed in 'accidental or criminal death' that's a 10:1 ratio presented in the same way as Kellerman's 2.4:1 ratio (adjusted for sucide)...you just aren't going to have a 1:1 ratio, because take the example of the College Park case, where is the armed student supposed to find 9 more criminals to kill in self defense so there is a 10 to 10 balance.
 
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