Gun shipping question

[collector14]

My local FFL guy had a situation today that he asked me about and I didn't know the answer. A customer bought a gun online. The seller (non-FFL individual) shipped the gun to this (buyers) FFL. After inspection, the buyer and seller agreed the gun would be returned.

Can the FFL ship the gun back to the individual seller that doesn't have an FFL?

 

[dogtown tom]

Your FFL should know that he can't return to the seller. He can only ship to another FFL.

You dealer needs to review the Firearms FAQ's on the ATF website.

 

[kingpin008]

Agreed. If my FFL asked me such a question, I'd kindly inform him that I would be taking my business elsewhere from then on.

It's his job to know the laws concerning such situations. His freedom (and very possibly that of his customers as well) depend on it.

 

[collector14]

Thanks. That's what I thought. I'm sure he's already found the answer and will do the right thing.

 

[EOD Guy]

My local FFL guy had a situation today that he asked me about and I didn't know the answer. A customer bought a gun online. The seller (non-FFL individual) shipped the gun to this (buyers) FFL. After inspection, the buyer and seller agreed the gun would be returned.

Can the FFL ship the gun back to the individual seller that doesn't have an FFL?

He must ship to an FFL. A 4473 must be filled out in order to return the firearm to the unlicensed shipper. It's the same reason a 4473 must be filled out in order to return a pawned or consigned firearm.

About the only time a 4473 is not required is return of a firearm sent for repair or modification.

Your FFL should know that he can't return to the seller. He can only ship to another FFL.

You dealer needs to review the Firearms FAQ's on the ATF website.

Reviewing FAQs is a bad idea unless you also read the referenced parts of the regulation. The answers to a lot of the FAQs are simplified and can be misleading.

 

[mgkdrgn]

And if ANYONE ever asks again why an FFL won't accept a shipment from a non-FFL THIS IS (one of the reasons) WHY.

This FFL is now stuck with a gun on his books that the buyer doesn't want, and he can't return to the seller.

 

[oneounceload]

This FFL is now stuck with a gun on his books that the buyer doesn't want, and he can't return to the seller.

HE didn't pay for it, so I do not see where he is stuck with it. Buyer tells seller to have FFL contact his, matter solved, FFL pockets a fee for his troubles.

 

[mgkdrgn]

HE didn't pay for it, so I do not see where he is stuck with it. Buyer tells seller to have FFL contact his, matter solved, FFL pockets a fee for his troubles.

And if the seller doesn't want to pay an FFL on his end to transfer back to him, or to pay shipping fees to the FFL that currently has the gun?

The only way for the FFL to get that gun off his books is to ship to another FFL or do a 4473 to someone in his own state. That is going to cost somebody, somewhere some $'s, and I got the general impression that nobody wanted to cough any up.

Didn't say the receiving FFL was (yet) out any money, but he's now got a gun he can't do anything with but help weigh his safe down. The next thing we are going to hear is the seller saying how an FFL "stole" his gun.

 

[danbrew]

The seller should have anticipated this and either said "no refund, no inspection period" or he should have said "if it comes back for any reason the buyer eats the fees to return it to the seller". Figure that the seller already has his money and isn't too inclined to do much at this point. If the "buyer and seller" have agreed that it will be returned, then they should have talked about how to accomplish this.

Also, I wonder what obligation the receiving FFL has to log the gun into his bound book? He should, since he accepted it on behalf of the buyer, but what happens when the receiving dealer gets a gun in the mail and says "I didn't order this"? Interesting question.

In any event, it's really up to the buyer and seller to resolve this issue. If neither party want to help, the buyer is gonna be hosed. Figure the seller already has his money. If I'm the receiving dealer, I'd tell the buyer, "you gotta make this seller provide FFL data and pay for postage to get it back to him. if you don't do that within x days, I'm charging YOU $x per day for storage". At a certain point he'll have the value of the gun in storage fees.

All together, though, a bad situation that could have been handled by a written agreement between buyer/seller or buyer/local FFL. Bet the local FFL won't be receiving guns for pals any time soon.

As an aside, who expects an inspection period on 99% of the Title I guns out there? I've bought expensive guns sight unseen and have lived with a few lumps and scratches along the way. Imho, if you're not prepared to lose every dollar when buying anything on the internet, you shouldn't be buying on the internet. For high dollar items (say, $10,000 or more - although everybody will have a different threshold here...), it's not unreasonable to spend $300 or so and jump on an airplane and go see the item in question before forking over major dollars. We're probably talking about a gun worth less than a grand here. Probably a lot less than a grand. Figure the buyer is the guy going to come out on the losing end here - consider it a stupid tax.

 

[mgkdrgn]

The seller should have anticipated this and either said "no refund, no inspection period" or he should have said "if it comes back for any reason the buyer eats the fees to return it to the seller". Figure that the seller already has his money and isn't too inclined to do much at this point. If the "buyer and seller" have agreed that it will be returned, then they should have talked about how to accomplish this.

Ya, they probably should have. Unfortunately, the FFL doesn't have any part in or control over this process

Also, I wonder what obligation the receiving FFL has to log the gun into his bound book? He should, since he accepted it on behalf of the buyer, but what happens when the receiving dealer gets a gun in the mail and says "I didn't order this"? Interesting question.

He has 24 hours to get it into his bound book, and if he accepts the shipment it MUST go into his bound book. The time to deal with something he didn't expect to get is at time of delivery. Refuse it and never take possession.

Bet the local FFL won't be receiving guns for pals any time soon.

And hence my original comment ....

If any of you are wondering why some (many?) FFL's won't accept shipments from non-FFL's .... this is why.

 

[Mags]

You guys are wrong as long as the gun has not been transfered to you the seller can recieve the gun back because it is still his gun. My FFL always waits for the gun to arrive and a full inspection is performed before i fill out the 4473. Shipping a gun to an FFL is not a transfer. If what what you guys are saying is true you could not send your gun in for service and then recieve it back from the manufacture.

 

[CoRoMo]

I've spoken to many, many FFL holders in my area that did not know rules that I think are basic. I've even argued with a couple and came away shaking my head at how they haven't been busted for what they are doing.

It is certainly their job to know, but there is a lot to know, and many FFL holders just take to the stool-sitting once they've gotten comfortable in their new place rather than keep learning the regs.

 

[EOD Guy]

You guys are wrong as long as the gun has not been transfered to you the seller can recieve the gun back because it is still his gun. My FFL always waits for the gun to arrive and a full inspection is performed before i fill out the 4473. Shipping a gun to an FFL is not a transfer. If what what you guys are saying is true you could not send your gun in for service and then recieve it back from the manufacture.

No. we are correct. A transfer to an FFL is a transfer under the regulation. BATF doesn't care about ownership. Possession is what matters. The regulation clearly requires a 4473 when a dealer transfers a firearm to a nonlicensee. The only exception in the regulation is if the firearm was sent for repair or modification. In that case, the regulation allows return to the owner.

Two other examples are when a firearm is pawned or left at a dealer on consignment. In both cases, a 4473 and background check are required before return to the owner.

 

[Mags]

Can't win with this crowd...

 

[mgkdrgn]

Can't win with this crowd...

Are you an FFL?

 

[belus]

What about gun smiths? They can ship back to the residential address they received the gun from, right? How is a dealer different?

This isn't shipping, but I recently had some work done at a local smith. He had the pistol for about 5 weeks and I didn't need a 4473 to get it back. I'm sure it entered his bound book.

 

[EOD Guy]

What about gun smiths? They can ship back to the residential address they received the gun from, right? How is a dealer different?

This isn't shipping, but I recently had some work done at a local smith. He had the pistol for about 5 weeks and I didn't need a 4473 to get it back. I'm sure it entered his bound book.

As I said above, firearms sent for repair are specifically exempted in the regulation and can be sent back directly to the person who sent them. There is no exemption for firearms sent to a dealer for any other purpose.

You can also pickup your firearm from the gunsmith which is covered by the exception in the regulation. However, if you give a firearm to a dealer to place on consignment or if you pawn a firearm, you will have to fill out a 4473 and go through a Brady check, unless exempted (i.e., CCW), before you can get your firearm back.

I've been working with Federal regulations for most of my adult life. One of the first things I learned was that using logic or common sense in interpreting them will only get you in trouble.

 

[mgkdrgn]

What about gun smiths? They can ship back to the residential address they received the gun from, right? How is a dealer different?

This isn't shipping, but I recently had some work done at a local smith. He had the pistol for about 5 weeks and I didn't need a 4473 to get it back. I'm sure it entered his bound book.

Different type of FFL, different set of rules. Guns SPECIFICALLY sent for repairs/work are an exception.

This was not the case with the OP.