Guns and EMS.

[NOLAEMT]

that sounds like a legitimate medical problem, syncope (fainting), especially with cyanosis (blue lips or fingers) is serious and should be checked out. I'm sorry you're experience with the hospital was unpleasant, but trust me I know what you mean, some of the triage nurses at the hospital can be in very poor moods due to dealing with demanding, upset, and rude people for 12 hours at a time. it doesn't excuse rude behavior to a patient, but sometimes it happens.

When I was talking about BS medical calls I mean the woman at 5am who is upset because she got a sunburn the day before and thinks she needs morphine. Or the man who's wrist has been hurting since Friday but waits until Monday morning to call the ambulance, and asks if I will call his boss to tell him he cant come into work that day.

 

[C-grunt]

Being a LEO I work with Fire and EMS a lot. I call them a lot at work, as I pretty much have to anytime Im asked to by a person, even if its complete BS or a prisoner comes down with a bad case of Jail-itus.

Where I work the EMS personel wont go around firearms and will wait for PD to "secure" the area.

 

[divemedic]

I have been nice in the past and overlooked the fact that a weapon was in a patient's bag, because our local Sheriff's Dept will not return a weapon once they have it, at least not without a court order.

 

[alohachris]

All hospitals have methods of securing a patients belongings. A locker, a lock box in security, or even the narc cabinet. Every gang banger I scraped up off the street had the following items: a pager, a roll of cash, and a weapon. After cutting off their clothes, everything got thrown into a bag and turned over to the hospital. Hospital security logged the belongings and tossed them into a locker. Typically, the cops showed up to collect the items for evidence.

I'd really like to know how EMS or a hospital would defend in court refusing necessary care because a competent patient refused to give up personal property to the police.

 

[bigalexe]

We were told if possible, to remove the gun from the person and preferably hand it over to the LEO

Can you clarify the first part of this more? You just said "Medical Scenes" which to me includes everyone. So you are saying if my dad breaks his leg in my home then you are to remove my hypothetically CC weapon because I am on the scene?

Also I am assuming the second part here has to do with the presumption that LEO's are expert firearm handlers which is something I think we have proven not to be universally true. I think really what should be said here is "Secure the firearm" or "Hand it to a competent individual." The intent being if the gun is on an unconscious person then it should be safely stowed.

I agree and disagree with the statement overall though. As a matter of personal safety to yourself as an EMT I would remove a firearm from a non-lucid individual including those partially conscious but not fully aware. This is because arriving on-scene you may not know everything and as a paranoid ex-military (I'm not implying anything, just needed something for example) the person may decide to draw and start firing as they are coming around. However if the individual is fully conscious, like they cut their arm and their 9-yr old called 911 then I think there is no need to disarm them. The only thing I would do is ask if they have a CC permit, and per hospital policy I would ask them to disarm and stow the weapon before boarding your ambulance while explaining that this is because they are going to the hospital where the gun will be confiscated upon entrance due to policy.

 

[padd54]

In Oregon, Hospitals are considered "public places" and therefore can't prohibit legal carry on the premises. We just had a "scare" at a local hospital of a gun, turned out he was a CHL holder. Even the LEO's needed to be educated on this.

 

[divemedic]

I'd really like to know how EMS or a hospital would defend in court refusing necessary care because a competent patient refused to give up personal property to the police.

Easy: If you want to ride in my ambulance, you will not have a weapon on you. If you refuse to disarm, you are refusing care. Same thing if you refuse to put out your cigarette, you don't get in the truck.

You have the right to accept or refuse care, or any portion of that care. You don't have the right to dictate the rules. How do I justify this? Scene safety. It is printed in every EMS textbook I have ever seen, and disarming a patient under this rule is easily justifiable to a judge or a jury.

 

[NOLAEMT]

I'd really like to know how EMS or a hospital would defend in court refusing necessary care because a competent patient refused to give up personal property to the police.

Its not that we are refusing to care for someone who needs care, they are refusing to allow for us to care for them. It's the same as if you wanted to bring your non-service animal (aka. pet), or anything else that we don't allow in the ambulance. For example, if you have a friend or family member that wants to go to the hospital with you they have to ride up front, with the exception of a parent going with a child.

you don't have to give it to the police, we will be happy to secure it for you in a compartment of the ambulance, or you can give it to a friend. but if you don't like the rules, you don't have to get into the ambulance.

If you're unconscious, we operate under what is called "implied consent" meaning it is assumed that a reasonable person would want us to do everything possible to care for them, if they can't tell us otherwise. Even when the family is there and objects, I am bound by law to treat you unless your family can present me with a signed DNR.

 

[NOLAEMT]

Easy: If you want to ride in my ambulance, you will not have a weapon on you. If you refuse to disarm, you are refusing care. Same thing if you refuse to put out your cigarette, you don't get in the truck.

You have the right to accept or refuse care, or any portion of that care. You don't have the right to dictate the rules. How do I justify this? Scene safety. It is printed in every EMS textbook I have ever seen, and disarming a patient under this rule is easily justifiable to a judge or a jury.

This... said much more succinctly than I am capable of apparently

thanks divemedic