Gut Check - Seating depth of a 38 Spl 148 DEWC

[jad0110]

First off, I am a reloading NOOB .

The picture below is of a cast 148 grain 38 Spl double-end wadcutter. Please excuse the poor picture quality. I know that very little of these WC bullets sticks above the case mouth. Does the depth look about right to you guys and gals out there that load these rounds?

My only concern is that a little bit of lead was shaved evenly all the way around the bullet. Do I need to adjust the Lee powder/expander die to add more flare?

Thanks for your input. FYI, I'll be propelling these starting with 3.0 to 3.2 grains of W231.

 

[45Badger]

I seat mine a bit deeper (probably split the exposed bit in half).

Do I need to adjust the Lee powder/expander die to add more flare?

Just a bit. Don't over do it.

I use 2.6 gr Bullseye and get a nice, mild, and accurate load.

 

[cdrt]

IMHO the bullet should be flush with the top of the case mouth when loading 148 grain full wadcutters, not exposed as you have it. It's not designed to be loaded that way. Your roll crimp looks okay and if seated correctly, you shouldn't be getting any lead shaving as you described. I load any where from 2.7 grains of BE to 3.0 depending on which .38 I'm using (2.7 for the K38 and 3.0 for the Clark 1911 conversion)

Navy Vet & SWIFT Boat OIC

 

[cheygriz]

Expand your necks just A LITTLE BITmore. Seating depth isn't critical with this type load. I personally prefer to seat them flush, but as long as yours fit in the cylibnder, they'll be fine.

 

[Deanimator]

IMHO the bullet should be flush with the top of the case mouth when loading 148 grain full wadcutters, not exposed as you have it. It's not designed to be loaded that way. Your roll crimp looks okay and if seated correctly, you shouldn't be getting any lead shaving as you described. I load any where from 2.7 grains of BE to 3.0 depending on which .38 I'm using (2.7 for the K38 and 3.0 for the Clark 1911 conversion)

Actually, that's just fine when shot from a revolver. In fact, it looks just like what I loaded last week for my M&P and my K-38 last week. There's a crimp groove on most DEWCs for a reason.

 

[Deanimator]

My only concern is that a little bit of lead was shaved evenly all the way around the bullet. Do I need to adjust the Lee powder/expander die to add more flare?

If you don't seat and crimp separately, I advise you to. I do and get excellent results.

The expander should be set to flare just enough for the bullet to sit in the case mouth without being held in place.

As far as seating depth, that looks fine to me. I'm loading a bunch of .38 Special almost identical to yours. I find that with revolvers I get better results seating the way you have. I roll crimp into the crimp groove on the DEWCs.

 

[Mal H]

Your picture looks about the same as my loaded DEWC's. The Laser-Cast 148's that I use have a crimping groove on both ends. 3.4 gr of AA #2 makes an amazingly accurate round in both a GP-100 and a Python.

Like Deanimator, I recommend seating and crimping in separate operations.

 

[SSN Vet]

the bullet should be flush with the top of the case mouth when loading 148 grain full wadcutters

the problem I had when loading DEWCs was that seating flush left me shorter than my manuals min. OAL. So I seated to the min. OAL, which left the bullet ~.02" proud of the mouth. I applied a very light roll crimp with the LFCD and they all shot just fine.

I was using Berry's plated 148 gr DEWC with no crimp groove.

I decided I wanted to try out X-treme bullets, as they are supposed to have a crimp groove, but after checking prices, I ordered 1,000 count box of 158 gr. Zero jacketed softpoints for only $75 delivered to my door.

With a price like that, who needs plated bullets?

 

[Deanimator]

With a price like that, who needs plated bullets?

I'm not a fan of plated bullets. I tried some plated 9mms from National Bullet years ago, and found the copper fouling much more of a bother than lead fouling.

 

[Zippy06]

Flush with the rim.
Loading some .357 mag. 146 gn DEWC 3.0 Titegroup. Nice.
1" group at 25'. Just like a hole punch.

 

[CZ57]

Who was it that said: "All wadcutters are created equal?"

A little more flare, seat and crimp in 2 operations, ditto! The size of the crimp groove will make it a challenge otherwise.

Two clues here. The nose has a bevel and the crimp groove just below it.

jad: looks to me like you loaded it the same way the bullet designer envisioned it. You might like Buttonose wadcutters as well.

 

[Deanimator]

You might like Buttonose wadcutters as well.

Magnus makes a very good one.

 

[jad0110]

Thanks for replies!

Thank you for all the good info.

FYI, I do seat and crimp in seperate operations. I have my FCD turned an additional half turn and it seem to work perfectly. I loaded up 10 DEWCs with 3.2 grains of W231, increasing the case mouth expansion just enough to eliminate the shaving.

Absolute perfection! You guys are right, this new second hobby sure is a crapload of fun, yipee!

I must say that when I touched off my very first handload I was a little nervous . I fired it in my 686, since it is the toughest gun I own that'll fire it. It all went great (it didn't blow up!), and I kept all but three rounds inside or bordering the 10 ring at 7 yds DA 2 hand hold. The other three rounds were totally my fault, I knew I'd flubbed them right before the hammer fell. DOH!

I think I'll leave the charge at 3.2 grains of W231.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Target loads

Jad0110--Yr target .38 loads look almost exactly like my loading of 148 grain lead DEWC's in .357 cases. I use this load for Bullseye league, also with W231. Winchester or CCI small pistol primers work equally well for me; same POI with either.

When I began loading for bullseye, I too seated the DEWC's flush with the case mouths. However, it seems easier to get 'em crimped and seated correctly, with the bullet just a little way out of the case. And my revolver doesn't seem to care.

For target work, and to prolong the life of the cases, I crimp my cases as little as possible--considerably less than in yr pic. My crimps are just barely more than removing the bell-mouth--which is also as little as possible. With a light load of W231, such as you and I use, there is no need for a heavy crimp.

Anyhow, it works for me. Are you shooting bullseye, or what, with this load?

 

[Lovesbeer99]

If the bullet has a crimp grove, why would you load it flush with the case rim? I've seen WC's designed to be seated flush, but a double ended cast bullet wad cutter with a crimp grove (like the laser-cast 148 gr) should be seated in the crimp grove. No?

 

[loadedround]

The reason 38 Special Wadcutters have to be seated flush with case was to fire them in a S&W Model 52 Master, or a Colt Golt Cup in this caliper. If not, these rounds would not function thru either pistol. These rounds could not be seated in the magazine and the chamber was cut for a flush seated round only. You may fire a revolver with a wadcutter bullet seated almost as far out as desired as long as it would chamber. Actually when revolvers were used in bullseye competiton, it was some sometimes favorable to seat the bullets out for less jump between the cylinder and forcing cone and hence better accuracy. Hope this additional information helps.

 

[jad0110]

Are you shooting bullseye, or what, with this load?

I'm not involved in any sort of competition shooting at the moment, especially with a 5 month old. I just like the way those 148 wadcutters shoot. I'll probably do something like that one day though, it appears to be a lot of fun. Maybe I'll get into CAS. That would be a great excuse to pick up a SA in 45 colt ! Anyway, I may try the 148s with 3.0 grains of W231 next time and see how they do compared to 3.2. 2.9 is the lowest minimum load I've seen in a manual.

Thanks again to all for all the help.

 

[Sunray]

"...should be seated..." Crimping .38 WC's isn't necessary. Crimping is detrimental to accuracy. Seat 'em flush with the seating die set up to remove the bell/flare and no more.
"...need to adjust the Lee powder/expander die..." It should be set up to flare the case just enough to sit the bullet in the case.

 

[Thirties]

DEWC seated flush makes a smaller volume for powder charge . . .

It is very easy to find consistent loading data for 148 grain hollow based wad cutters (HBWC) in any loading book. They are intended to be seated flush with the case mouth with just a slight crimp, roll or taper. Let us agree that this is gospel.

But for the other 148 grain wad cutters: the bevel base (BBWC) or the double ended (DEWC), the loading data is not at all as consistent, especially in regard to cartridge overall length, seating depth, and where to crimp. These type of wad cutter bullets all have crimping grooves.



Since the "flat ended" wadcutters, when seated to to flush with the case mouth, allow a smaller volume in the powder area, would the loading data not yield hotter results than a similarly seated hollow based wad cutter?

So, would be wise to use the forward crimp groove when loading these DEWC/BBWC, regardless of the exact cartridge overall length? My guess is the COL would be around 1.250 instead of 1.155? And then one could use the widely published HBWC load data as a reasonable starting point, adjusting based on velocity results.

Am I near-base or off-base here?

Thanks for your replies . . .

 

[cdrt]

Thirties

There certainly are inconsistencies regarding loading 148 DEWCs. My 45th edition of the Lyman manual shows their # 358495 bullet (141 grain DEWC) with a Bullseye load anywhere from 2.0 to 3.7 as max. In the 47th edition, the same bullet is loaded with BE from 3.0 to 4.1 grains being max.

So which correct? Both probably.

I'm guessing the really light starting load (2.0 BE) was due to a lot of guys shooting Bullseye with revolvers. Now autoloaders are the common firearm in Bullesye and require a little hotter starting load.

As for your observation about case capacity. I usually load HBWCs for my Clark 1911 .38 Spl with 3.0 grains of BE. I get similar results with the DEWCs using 2.8 grains of BE. Anything hotter than that and accuracy seems to suffer.

Just an additional note; you can seat WCs out a little and they will still function in the Colt Midrange magazine. I did have some leading on the top of the chamber in my Clark; probably from the bullet rubbing as it chambered. I've since always made sure the bullets are seating ever so slightly below the cartridge rim.

Hope all this helps.

Navy Vet & SWIFT Boat OIC

 

[Thirties]

Thanks. I get the idea now. The difference in volume is not so significant.

I'm shooting these in revolvers, by the way, not semi autos.

 

[DBR]

The further back (shorter OAL) the higher the peak pressure will be with a given charge of powder. Usually the velocity doesn't change very much. It is probably better to seat the bullet where it was designed to be seated.

Hollow base wadcutters usually seat flush. Most other types seat out somewhat. Use the crimp groove as a guide.

I seat plated double ended wadcutters flush because trying to crimp can fracture the plating and cause it to flake off.