H&K Jams and trooper dies

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Well, H&K's don't jam as a rule. I seriously doubt it was the fault of the gun, ammunition, or anything else. Agreed, Glocks are generally more reliable, but I've Glock Malfunctions in my time as well. Never had an HK pistol jam on me.

This story is anecdotal at best. As George said, any gun can jam. The widow might have suffered, but why not sue the estate of the man that SHOT HIM instead of the gun manufacturer that operated in good faith to provide him with defense.

One final note, if the Cop had been allowed to carry a real gun like a Carbine or SMG, he'd probably still be alive.

It would be interesting to note the model and caliber of gun, type and lot of ammunition, and specifics on the type of malfunction that occurred. It would also be interesting to note whether or not the guns were properly maintained, inspected, repaired, etc. How many rounds did this gun have through it? This story is just a tease.
 
Any gun can and will jam, including revolvers and GLOCKS. . . To say it wouldn't have jammed had it been a GLOCK is unrealistic at best.

It doesn't help when the firearms are old, have been rebuilt numerous times, and likely don't get shot often enough to determine their condition.

After 17 years of wear (regardless of how many rebuilds) it is past time for an upgrade. The sad thing is this officer may still be around if he had received better training or had follwed his training. Backups are a must if you are a LEO.

Troopers more than ready for new weapons
09/11/00

BY BRIAN T. MURRAY
STAFF WRITER
SECOND LOOK REVISITING PEOPLE AND PLACES THAT HAVE MADE NEWS

The State Police are getting new state-of-the-art pistols, nearly three years after a trooper was killed in a shoot-out in which his service weapon jammed.

The Smith & Wesson 9 mm pistols, which have a 15-shot capacity, should be in the hands of all state troopers within the next six months.

"A contract has been signed, a challenge to the contract has been resolved and by October we will get the first shipment of 600 new Smith & Wesson 9 mm handguns, which will go first to the approximately 1,700 troopers on the road," said John Hagerty, a State Police spokesman.

The $1.3 million contract for 3,200 pistols was signed with Ray Sport Shop Inc. of Plainfield. The last hang-up was resolved Aug. 23 when the Treasury Department reviewed and dismissed a challenge by another bidder, said Hagerty.

The Smith & Wesson Model 99 is considered top of the line, as was the Heckler & Koch 9mm when it was first issued to the troopers in 1983.

The State Police dispute the overall significance the malfunction of Trooper Scott Gonzalez's weapon played in his death during the Oct. 24, 1997, shoot-out in Mansfield.

However, the trooper's widow and the union representing the rank and file troopers maintain the failed gun contributed to the officer's death.

"It's still upsetting to her, naturally. There's no question his death is the impetus for these (new) guns," said attorney Dennis Donnelly, who is representing Maureen Gonzalez in a lawsuit she filed against the family of her husband's killer and many others, including Heckler & Koch.

The State Police Fraternal Association wants a guarantee that the pistols for rank and file troopers will be replaced every six to eight years.

"It's unconscionable that any agency thinks a weapon has a shelf life of 17 years. A lot of the guys are holding guns handed off to them when someone retired," said Dave Jones, vice president of the association.

"The Heckler & Koch was a state-of-the-art weapon when we got it in 1983. But it took the Trooper Phil Lamonaco tragedy to get those guns 17 years ago and now it has taken Scott Gonzalez's death to get to where we are now," he added.

When Lamonaco was gunned down on Dec. 21, 1981, on the shoulder of Route 80 in Warren County, he was carrying a six-round service revolver and the two gunmen were armed with 9 mm handguns. Two years after Lamonaco's death, state troopers were issued the Heckler & Koch pistols which are capable of firing 15 rounds.

In Gonzalez's case, a firing-pin spring on his gun malfunctioned during a shoot-out that lasted only 60 seconds.

The trooper had cornered Samuel Shipps Jr., a 29-year-old mental patient he pursued after the suspect grabbed a shotgun from his parents' Knowlton Township trailer and drove off in a truck. The chase ended when Shipps turned down a dirt driveway in Mansfield and then made a U-turn, hitting the trooper's car head-on.

The collision pinned Gonzalez. His car doors jammed and the front-seat airbag discharged. He could not free a shotgun bracketed along the front seat as Shipps jumped out of his truck and fired round after round of birdshot from a shotgun. The trooper was hit in the head, but managed to squeeze off three shots from his service pistol before it jammed.

As Shipps moved over to the driver's side of the trooper's car, Gonzalez cleared a cartridge from the pistol's chamber, ejected the ammunition clip and shoved a new clip into the base of the gun. But he never got to fire again.

The shots that killed him were fired directly into his head from the driver-side window. Shipps then drove off. Shipps died after accidentally shooting himself in the head a short distance away while jumping from his front seat to confront two more troopers.

The tragic deaths of Lamonaco and Gonzalez involved situations much more complicated than simply being out-gunned, said Hagerty and Peter McDonough, a spokesman for Gov. Christie Whitman.

Both also maintain that the Heckler & Koch 9 mm carried by the troopers today are not antiques that are falling apart.

"It's not fair to say they are 17 years old. Virtually every H&K has been rebuilt at some point. Virtually no weapon out there would be the original 17-year-old weapon," Hagerty said.

The service weapons are inspected twice annually, and in 1998, about 2,700 troopers fired their guns 450,000 times in tests, with only 274 malfunctions, said Hagerty. Any problems result in a replacement or repair of the gun, he said. McDonough added that an in-house committee of the State Police regularly reviews the agency's weapons technology to determine if new guns are necessary.

"Weapons should be replaced or upgraded when needed. Saying we should do it every six years is an arbitrary time period. Maybe they have to be changed in two years because of new technology out there," he said.

But the Fraternal Association offers a different scenario.

Other firing tests showed a failure rate of 14 to 20 percent, according to a pending complaint the union filed with the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Jones added that it took until late last year for the State Police to ask gun dealers to submit new gun proposals, and it was only this year that 12 types of guns were tested by troopers.

"It takes years to replace these guns. It's three years since Gonzalez died. That's too long. Do we wait until another tragedy the next time?" said Jones.
 
I believe the firearm in question was an H&K P7M13. . . originally acquired in 1983. Many rounds and possible rebuilds along the way.

Shake
 
The suspect, Samuel Beatty Shipps, 29, of Knowlton Township, died after accidentally shooting himself in the head with the same shotgun minutes later as he tried to flee from police.

Not being sympathetic for the criminal but WTH?
 
This story is anecdotal at best. As George said, any gun can jam. The widow might have suffered, but why not sue the estate of the man that SHOT HIM instead of the gun manufacturer that operated in good faith to provide him with defense.

Easy, the perps estate has no money
 
If its the HK's they bought after the Lomonico incident, they are the P7's - "squeeze cockers"

I thought they had replaced them sooner but I guess not. You do still see trooper weapons used in local guncases . . .

The P7 was unique and a mechanical work of art but the knock was that the thing had to be kept clean otherwise it would misfire.

Sounds like some other mechanical failure happened though . . .
 
So, no fault of the ammunition, no fault of the vehicle, no fault of the trooper, no fault of training...

Let me tell you what I gathered from reading that:
Firing pin spring broke: It happens. Springs don't last forever.
Guns got rebuilt: Did the springs get replaced?
Trooper used Immediate Action!: Wow, good on him. He identified the problem and did everything in his power to clear it. That means he had good training and discipline under fire.
After everything was said and done, lawyers went off with 'guns blazing' for anybody and everybody that might have had some smidgon of blame.

Who was to blame: The bastard who shot the cop and the bastards that let the mental patients out of whatever institution he was in. And we don't cry foul when JOHN Friggin HINKLEY get's let out of the hospital without supervision?
 
Shake , the gun in question is the HK P7 M8. One of the most reliable guns ever made , that's why I carry one . It's amusing that they want to go to a S&W which I would never recommend to anyone. But in this case there was a death and some one had to be blamed. No comment though about exactly why it had malfunctioned......I remember some friends shooting at a range 20 years ago someone came up to them and said try this gun this is really well designed . The gun was a P7 , the man who had it was a S&W engineer !! It operated flawlessly with all types of 9mm ammo. I'll still take any HK pistol over other brands ..... Highland Ranger, I wonder if you have read Ayoob's book where he shot 4500 rounds through a P7 without cleaning ?
 
All guns jam because all guns suck. That is why we train for malf clearances as much as possible. I'm sorry to hear that the trooper did not make it out alive. Learn your malf drills and don't ever rely on equipment to make up for lack of training.
 
All guns, of all makes will not work as reliably as they day they were new 17 years after issue, countless rounds & days upon years of wear. That is why they should be replaced in routine fashion sooner than every 2 decades! It should have been a clue to someone that the guns were wearing out if they've experienced several rebuilds and are still in service!
This story is absolutely tragic! :(
 
Guns jam? Imagine that... :rolleyes:

Had a guy looking at a used Glock today. He asked "Will you guarantee it?"
I replied, "Sir, we check them when they come in. It's all there and in good working order."
"Yes, but a guarantee..."
I went through a good function check in front of him, explaining how all the small bits worked and showing him the crucial areas that affect reliability; "...so yes sir, it's all there and working right."
"But if I take it out shooting with my son in a couple of days...what if it jams? Can you guarantee it won't jam?"
"Sir, I won't guarantee that the pistol on my hip won't jam." :uhoh:
 
S&W? Glock? SIG? HK? Kimber?

The only sure cure for jam problems is a second (and maybe third) gun...

...and it may jam, too, so a keen eye for exit routes is something worth cultivating. :uhoh:
 
A twenty year old gun
The collision pinned Gonzalez. His car doors jammed and the front-seat airbag discharged. He could not free a shotgun bracketed along the front seat as Shipps jumped out of his truck and fired round after round of birdshot from a shotgun. The trooper was hit in the head, but managed to squeeze off three shots from his service pistol before it jammed.

As Shipps moved over to the driver's side of the trooper's car, Gonzalez cleared a cartridge from the pistol's chamber, ejected the ammunition clip and shoved a new clip into the base of the gun. But he never got to fire again.
The officer was pinned, and already injured at the head. Inspite these, he was still able to fire three shots, but these may possibly be wayward as he's not set to aim properly.

But the assailant has all the time to finish the job.

No gun could have saved him.
 
Why didn't she sue the State Police? They issued the "defective" car. They issued the "defective" gun, and knew the guns were defective as proven by the fact that they replaced them. But of course, The Brady Campaign finances these suits and would not want to sue their "friends" in the police.

Jim
 
mete,

The story specifically states that the "firing-pin spring on his gun malfunctioned ". I don't think many will argue with you about the H&K being a reliable weapon. The question seems to be more along the lines of the condition of the firearm after 17 years of use.

Maybe someone else can confirm the dates, but I'd guess the move to S&W came about during the infamous "agreement" period where certain agencies were compelled (by the all-knowing politicians) to look to S&W first to arm their officers? I'm not sure on the timing, seems about right though.

Simply put, the officer got into a bad situation that he couldn't deal with given the tools he had. Had he been able to use the shotgun, it may be a different story. I think there is a good chance that, had he been able to continue using his handgun, he still may not have stopped the BG before being shot himself.

It's too bad the BG couldn't have had his little mishap with his own shotgun BEFORE he got to the trooper.

Shake
 
Shake,

Maybe someone else can confirm the dates, but I'd guess the move to S&W came about during the infamous "agreement" period where certain agencies were compelled (by the all-knowing politicians) to look to S&W first to arm their officers?

Actually, NJ's decision to bail on the P7 came after a couple of over-publicized snafus with the Kraut staple guns (trooper Gonzalez's among them.) The choice of the SW99 as a replacement, however, did seem to be politically motivated. IIRC, the rank-and-file troopers wanted to go Glock...
 
Can't say as I blame the troopers. Should have tried their best to persuade them to at least get the "real" version of the S&W99. . . IMHO.

Political and media pressure rarely seems to help people make the best decisions. It's too bad the lives of LEO's are the stakes.

Shake
 
Highland Ranger, I wonder if you have read Ayoob's book where he shot 4500 rounds through a P7 without cleaning ?

I think NJSP dropped it because of cost primarily. I have limited first hand experience and if you and Mas Ayoob say its reliable thats good enough for me!

However, check out the article in Handguns 2004 by Frank W. James - Conclusion Page 83:

" . . . the P-7 was always a pistol that demanded a high degree of maintenace in the fact that it had to be kept clean. Pure and simple, the gas cylinder was finicky in terms of carbon build-up as well as the ammunition fed through the gun. The net result of all this was it was soon realized it was not a pistol for military service . . . . "

Guy is not a poet I'll grant you. Treats the thing more as a mechanical oddity "ahead of its time" than a reliable self defense piece. Apparently HK had special tools (he references a gas cylinder cleaning brush and reamer) to clean it as well.
 
Apparently HK had special tools (he references a gas cylinder cleaning brush and reamer) to clean it as well.

Yes, they do. Yes, they should be used. Gunwriters writing of Things That Should Not Be Done To The Gun You're Carrying are not good primary information sources (...and neither are folks on the Errornet. Guess what? When I decided to give my Pro the "mud-stomping test", there was another gun on my hip, and the Pro didn't go back in the holster until it had been cleaned, oiled, and function-checked for a couple hundred rounds. I was curious to see if it would work and all, but Springfield wasn't picking up my life insurance tab. ;) )
 
A Glock wouldnt
Second semi automatic handgun I ever saw jam was a Glock 17 (the first was a beat up old Nazi proofed Belgan High-Power a friend of mine owned).


Any gun can jam ... and based on the stories I've read here and on TFL and GT, Cops are about the worse out there for gun maintenance.
 
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