H&R Huntsman .58 Caliber

[Bluehawk]

Several years ago I picked up a pair of original, used, .58 caliber Huntsmans rifles. Been sitting in the safe ever since. My question is...what size ball do they use and are they patched or do they just use an oversized ball? What's considered proper for powder charges? Anyone have any experience with these break-open muzzle loaders?
(the breech plugs are screw-in and not the push-in type so please don't relate all the horror stories about the plugs firing out the back...I've read them already)

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I had one years ago (with the push in breech plug). Just get any old .58 ball and a patch. Back then I used 100 grs. of 2f real black. The only negative I found was the el chepo wooden ramrod. Gun shot well until the transfer bar broke.

 

[Bluehawk]

I have .575 sized balls...patches would have to be very thin wouldn't they? Any idea what H&R recommended for starting and max loads??

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I don't have any load data. Since the guns are made of modern steel I see no problems with 100 grs. of 2f black. Trust me, this is a hunting load and recoil was stout. I would start with about 60 grs. and work up. Do yourself a favor and get a better ramrod cause mine broke in short order (partly due to not cleaning between shots due to fouling). These are neat guns and are very easy to clean.

I could be wrong, but I thought .58 balls were pretty much standard, but I don't recall the actual dia.

 

[arcticap]

I have .575 sized balls...patches would have to be very thin wouldn't they?

Pages 9 - 10 of the Lyman User's Guide describes how to choose a ball & patch combination for a muzzle loader:

http://stevespages.com/pdf/lyman_blackpowder.pdf

It's not as necessary to slug the bore of a known caliber as it is to choose the right combination of patch & ball. Grooves are generally going to measure somewhere between .006 - .012.
Just remember that the difference that needs to be made up with the patch thickness needs to be cut in half since the patch will cover both sides of the ball.

For example: If the grooves of your bore are .008" deep then add the depth of the grooves from each side of the bore together and add that to the bore diameter to come up with a total.

In this case the bore .58 + .008 grooves on one side + .008 grooves on the other side = .596

Now subtract the diameter measurement of your balls which is .575 from .596 which equals .021, the amount of space on both sides of the ball that needs to be filled.

Dividing by 2 shows that each side of the ball will have a space of ~.0105 that needs to be entirely filled by a patch to stop the escaping gases.

That number shows that a standard .010 patch will nearly fill the entire groove on each side of the ball if your groove measures .008.

Now this is where trial and error enters the picture. It's assumed that a .010 patch will either be a good fit or if the grooves are deeper, it will be a loose fit.
Some folks feel that it's better to go with a slightly thicker patch which in this case would be .015 because patch material compresses when it's forced into a bore. That helps to engrave the ball with the rifling better. However that can make loading much tougher unless your grooves are actually deeper.

Other folks like easier loading so they will use the thinnest patch that will do the job, unless that patch thickness doesn't shoot very accurately. Plus a thin patch doesn't hold as much lube and can cut, tear or burn away more easily when loaded and forced into the bore.

Choices are usually made as to the size of which round balls to buy based on certain factors including them knowing the standard patch thicknesses in advance.

For many that means that they nearly always choose a ball diameter that's .010 under their bore diameter to start experimenting with. That way either a .015 or a .018 pillow ticking will usually always fill the grooves. So then they know which patches to keep on hand.

But in your case, you selected the tighter .575 balls which leaves less room for a thicker patch if the barrel has standard depth rifling. So that somewhat limits the patch thickness to .010 for you to start to experiment with to see how accurately they will shoot.
If that lubed patch thickness doesn't shoot good, then you will need to either try a thicker patch with the same .575 ball, or a smaller .570 ball in combination with a thicker patch, either .015 or .018. And sometimes an over powder card or wad will help to seal the bore if the patch is thin.

Not only the ball diameter but the depth of the rifling will determine the best patch thickness to use.
I suggest to start with a lubed .010 patch and see how it shoots.
Most shooters keep several patch thicknesses on hand for when they run into needing to experiment with working up a new load based on which balls they purchased.
Now do I know which patch that you should use? No, I can only guess because I didn't measure or slug your bore. But based on standard medium depth rifling of .006 - .008, it can be guessed.

 

[Bluehawk]

Thanks to both of you for the info...I guess the best thing to do is get the wrench that removes the plug and slug the bore...should be the simplest way to go...agreed?

 

[arcticap]

IMO, at this point that's not the easiest way.
Since you already bought some balls, even if you did slug the bore, that won't tell you in advance which ball/patch combination will shoot the best.

I still have my .58 huntsman that I bought in 1976. It has a push in breech plug and uses the standard #11 cap with 75gr of Loose Bp and a tight patch on a .577 ball (pillow ticking) I am able to put 3 touching at 50yds from a solid rest. You do have to experiment to find your load. My buddy 29 years ago had one too and his load was 65gr of BP for best accuracy. His first deer with a muzzle loader was with that gun and he said he had never seen so much damage done. He was used to shooting with a 16 gauge shotgun.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=57951.0

Pillow ticking happens be .018 thick and may be tougher to load.

 

[Bluehawk]

You're correct Articap...slugging the bore won't tell me what will shoot the best...only shooting and experimenting with different loads will do that but slugging the bore will tell me what possible ball size and patch to start off with. These rifles are early in-lines and removing the plug is fairly simple so slugging should be a breeze.
I didn't buy the .575 balls, I cast them years ago for milling material for ball milling rocket propellant and I still have them as well as the molds.

 

[arcticap]

You can always use two .010 patches and it's only .002 more than an .018 patch.
A .015 patch would still probably be a safe, moderate choice and based on the previous post, an .018 pillow ticking patch may shoot very well but load tight.

If slugging the barrel is easy for you to do then do it.
The barrel may have some previous wear but more importantly, the cast balls may also also need to be measured to verify their diameter, which can be dependent on the alloy and the mold that was used to cast them.
Doing all of that makes sense and then working up a load will be a lot of fun.

 

[Bluehawk]

the cast balls may also also need to be measured to verify their diameter, which can be dependent on the alloy and the mold that was used to cast them.

There are several ways to slug a barrel...the easiest is to push an oversized pure lead ball (in this case .690) down the bore and measure the lands and grooves on it when it's free of the barrel. That's all there is to it! I slugged five M44 Mosin Nagants yesterday that way...four of them were so worn/rusted they were not worth having...the fifth slugged at .311...I bought it!