handgun advice needed - for a special needs case

[lawson]

one of my best friends used to be an avid shooter and was halfway through cop school when he suffered a crippling hand injury. long story short, he fell down and ended up with a broken Corona bottle through the palm of his hand. three surgeries and five years of physical therapy later, he wants to get back into shooting, and get his CCW.

i've taken him shooting quite a few times, starting with .22's and working his way up to light .38 special out of my GP-100. because of his hand injury, he is more recoil sensitive than most people. he said he could shoot my Taurus PT-138 (.380) without any pain at all, but he doesn't think it's a viable self-defense round.

does anyone have any recommendations for a handgun that has decent stopping power with low recoil? he wants an automatic with a decently high capacity. i'm a revolver guy mostly, so i'd like some input.

 

[symr00]

My Glock 19 had a very light recoil. Strong hand only follow-up shots were a breeze. Since you are in Mesa, you might want to go to Caswell's to rent some handguns. I would imagine any 9mm in that size might work.

 

[sm]

lawson,

Please clarify, is the injured hand his strong/ shooting hand?

I have worked with some folks, some had injured the strong hand, and some had injured weak hand. Recoil bothered even with it being the weak hand, and affected MOA . Take a bit of training to get over the concerns, and re-educate the brain. I mean the body went thru a trauma, normal to have problems

Gun fit.
Encompasses all sorts of things. Including Rule of 96 - Simply put, the weight of gun and the payload ratio.
Can shooter reach and manipulate controls.
Does gun "fit" in regard to lessening recoi.

I agree with try a variety. My experience with folks have been to avoid the .40 cal, it just has a sharper recoil, just more sharper in lighter guns.

.380 has fit the bill for a lot of folks with physical limits - Tip up Beretta is a great gun, accurate and easy to shoot and shoot well. Easy to load, make safe and all with Tip Up feature.

9mm in a BHP or other heavier gun.

1911 has more "push" with a 45ACP, in a 9mm , a pussycat.

Revolvers, medium frame with stocks that fit them, Tyler T grips and start with really light loads for form, Even Speer training bullets. Most I work with stay with standard pressure loads in Model 10 , and 64. Dedicated .38spls .

Another I really like is the 32 in revolvers.

Just ideas, still try a variety for gun fit and all it encompasses.

.380 , well IMO if the shooter shoots is well, will carry it, and the gun fits, shot placement is the key. Tip up Beretta in 32 ACP is another favorite I just remembered as well.

Some of the folks I assisted with were more physicall limited.

Do not forget to suggest, if the injury is strong hand the importance of considering learning to shoot weak handed real well.

Some of my folks had to , no choice.


steve

 

[Jim March]

Not enough info.

OK. You've got three possible issues here:

1) Strength - how heavy a gun can he hold? Did holding the GP100 hurt, even without firing it? Ask him. This matters.

2) Dexterity. What is his reach to the various controls (hammer/trigger/safety)? Are his hands on the small side or fairly big? You have to think about dexterity both in terms of how big his hand was originally and NOW how much dexterity loss does he have if any? Ask him.

3) Recoil sensitivity.

Come to think...cost is an issue too. There are a few really weird options out there...the Mateba soaks up recoil unnaturally well. A JBCustom mare's leg is a heavy gun that can be had in 38spl and due to the long barrel gets serious velocity going...pricy though:

http://www.jbcustom.com/new-mares.htm

 

[mikeb3185]

+1 on the 19 you can get after market guide rods and springs that reduce recoil too. http://www.topglock.com/catalog/recoil.htm

 

[lawson]

it's his strong side hand that is injured, because of that he also needs a decently light trigger pull. i suggested some kind of steel framed 1911, but he's set on at least 12 round capacity.

weight isn't as much of an issue as torque on the hand and wrist. with lighter loads, he didn't have much of a problem with the gp100, until we went up to heavy .357 loads. he does not want a revolver.

his budget is around $500-600.

 

[sm]

Just me, not meaning to offend anyone - instead to get some thinking going on.

I'm old school, the number of rounds are not as important to me , as the firearm being reliable for the shooter.

Gentleman has a real concern of limpwristing, and in a serious situation, odd things happed to motor skills. This gentleman has even a more greater concern being physically limited.

To get quick accurate hits, the gun has to run. Shooter must have the ability to run the gun, including weak handed. More rds in a gun that does not fit, or does not cycle because the hand does not allow itself to be stable to allow action to work - are useless.

I had some students that ran the 9mm P series Rugers well. The ergos allowed them to handle and NOT limpwrist better than the Glock. Seen this work the other way. Old police trade in 3913 was another 9mm.

See I like the 9mm because of the variety of guns that shoot it, ammo can be found anywhere, it is affordable and folks will train/ practice more. I am a huge 1911 in 45ACP person, quite a few physically limited persons shoot this gun best, and do so.

Then again, some were honest, with everthing else going on , including budget, the 9 mm meant they would shoot more to be better shooters. I mean even if nothing but Blazer was used.

Revolvers. Yes I read what you wrote he said. Still, the revolver is a big tool in the tool box. NOT dependent on ammo to run, NOT dependent on magazines, and NOT affected by limpwristing.

A lot of the folks I assisted with , go to a revolver first. Not just the physically limited.

I am one raised and still pass forward the lessons passed to me. I still feel a person that learns to shoot a Revolver DA will be a better shooter if, and when they choose to transition to another platform.

My students often had budget concerns, old Police trade in Model 10s were affordable, not dependent on ammo or mags, or affected by limpwristing.

Sure some wanted a semi, some may have even been able to afford one...still breaking it down to the most simple and safe. The monies NOT spent on mags and testing each mag for CCW added up.

Now later many did go to a semi. I also had folks - physically limited as well, get injured again, or subsequent surgery.

They had that wheelgun to fall back on.

The other gun physcially limited folks , any of the students as well saved up for ,was a .22. Again great practice, affordable practice, and the lessons meant hitting that golf ball every single time.

Not the best HD gun, but when you only have a partial hand, and it gets injured, and even with training, that Glock does not work for you- that Old Standard MKI Ruger [ or similar] will.

Once recovered again, the person could again shoot their Glock.

No offense, just I think outside the box.

 

[Outlaws]

Can he learn to shoot with his other hand? I don't know about other people but I can shoot with either hand just fine as long as I don't use a two handed grip...then I am right handed only.

Also, I owned a Glock 19 and I would consider that a heavy recoil especially for someone with a injured hand. That thing had a whip to it. Not to mention field stripping it....that takes holding that slide half way back and some finger muscle and dexterity.

 

[Srigs]

Shoot with the non-injured hand would be the best bet. If not a viable option then a heavier gun will mean less recoil so stainless steal all the way!

 

[TimboKhan]

I was going to suggest learning to shoot with his other hand too. My dad regularly amazes me by shooting equally well with either hand, a skill I have yet to develop. Also, while it wouldn't be so practical for a CCW situation, for practice and stuff would a PAST shooting glove help him?

 

[Texfire]

As a lefty, I've had to put up with "learn to use your other hand" for years, but in this case I agree.

If he has limited function with that hand I'd hate for him to lose that due to injuring it trying to shoot too much gun or lose control of a gun due to limited grip strength. Not saying that it would happen, but if he has a hand with unimpared function then that's the one he should choose. If he's a right-hander there's actually some good choices for him among the ambi config guns, and if he's a lefty then there's even more choices.

Tex

 

[fedlaw]

Six years ago I crushed my right (dominant) wrist. After extensive reconstructive surgery and rehab, I started shooting again. I could barely tolerate even holding a handgun, so I picked up my little .22 Marlin Papoose and started plinking. After five months of this, I tried out a selection of handguns, from a Taurus .22, Glock 9's, SIG 9's, S&W .38 specials, Beretta 92, etc. I found I could shoot the SIG P226 adequately. I gradually built up my tolerance for the touch and recoil of the SIG. (Smooth grip panels helped.) I kept experimenting with different grips, guns, ammo, my own grip, etc, and I kept up the rehab on my own. After several years, I switched to N frame, long-barreled Smiths, using light loads. Again, I used smooth grip panels. Last year I made the transition to 1911's for carry and competition.

Some of the lessons I've learned:
1) It takes a long time to come back. Actually I'll never get back to where I was. Everyday is rehab day.

2) Keep experimenting with guns ( I have bought and sold a lot of guns in the past 6 years) grips, etc., and ammo. I need a completely smooth gun. I cannot tolerate any checkering or friction enhancement on the gun or grips. Traction doesn't seem to be a problem since my surgery. My palm no longer perspires and the texture of my skin seems to adhere to smooth grip panels even in the rain. Last year I trained outdoors in the rain and had no problem pushing 500 rds. through my Kimber in simulated combat conditions. I also had to modify the grip safeties on my 1911's so they release earlier.

3) Work with a trainer who can help you with the way you grip your gun. To say that John Krupa III of the Spartan Training Group helped me a lot, would be a vast understatement.

4) I am still very recoil sensitive, (.40 cal is a no-no for me), and I still do not have enough strength in my trigger finger to shoot a stock N Frame Smith in double-action for more than a few rounds. (That's what trigger jobs are for.)

5) Keep at it.

Hope this helps,
Steve

 

[longeyes]

Glocks with the double recoil spring. Glock 26, Glock 30.

 

[grislyatoms]

Do either of you reload?

I am thinking light .45 ACP loads in a 1911. I'd have to look in my log but I recall making some 230 grain ball rounds with 5 grains of w231 (again, don't quote me on that) that were pretty light but would still cycle the action reliably. Get an 8 round magazine +1 in the pipe and he's got 9 rounds. As someone else mentioned, standard recoil in a 1911 is a "push", he may be more comfortable with something lighter?

For that matter, maybe light loads in just about anything?

P.S. Good on ya for getting him shooting again.

 

[sm]

fedlaw,

I appreciate your sharing. Your experience mirrors what I have observed and been through with physical limits.

.40 cal is a no-non, ergos of gun, Smooth Stocks that fit, .22 for practice...

I wish you continued improvement.


grislyatoms,

I do not reload metallic, however the "Push" of the 1911 is lessened with 200 gr and even better the 185gr loading.

Win 185 gr STHP always feed in any .45ACP gun we used. It also had a more easy push.

This 185 gr STHP load always run the bone stock 1911s , Kimber Series I, Commander Sized Guns ( steel or alloy and steel) Glocks, Ruger P series...

[ I do NOT do or recommend smaller than Commander sized 1911 style guns]

A 185 gr loading in 45ACP is a good load.

Yes I prefer a 200gr, or 230 better, Still the name of the game is quick accurate hits, if a shooter shoots the 185 grainer better for them, in their gun, I say carry it.

A firearm is only an extension of a person - Each person is different, advice and suggestion a starting reference point.


Steve

 

[EddieCoyle]

Can he learn to shoot with his other hand?

I was going to suggest learning to shoot with his other hand too.

This is good advice. I had an accident a while back where I lost the ends of my index and middle fingers on my right (shooting) hand. Having lost the ability to pull the trigger, I had no choice but to switch hands. To make matters worse, I'm right eye dominant.

It took about three weeks of wasting a lot of ammo before I felt comfortable shooting lefty. About three weeks after that, it felt natural to pick up and shoot a gun with my left hand. Now, I don't even think about it. I shoot more now and I shoot better than I ever did righty. Way better. The human body is amazingly adaptable.

Your friend should rehab and work his way up to whatever he can handle with his damaged hand, but nerve damage sometimes never goes away. It's been over 12 years for me and I still have "phantom" pain every second of every day. I'd advise your pal to try switching hands for three weeks.

 

[Snarlingiron]

My choice of 9mm was largely driven by ammo price. I do consider it the smallest effective round for defensive purposes. I also like the availability of plenty of rounds to put down range, so throw in the need for reliablility and I chose the Glock 19. The pistol course I recently took emphasized the necessity of learning to shoot, reload and recover from malfunctions with both hands. And with one hand only. When I go to the range I always practice with my weak hand, and I have gotten pretty good at it. Maybe your friend should consider just switching hands, and practicing with his damaged hand as his "back up". It is really more of a mental thing than a physical thing. Once the instructor told us we had to shoot more or less as well with our weak hand as our stong one, the mental part just sort of went away. It's amazing what you can do when you have to.

good luck

 

[Trebor]

I'd also suggest he try switching hands. The injured hand might well work better in the support role. He will have to work out the eye dominance issues and train himself to "naturally" reach for the pistol with the uninjured hand, etc, but I think switching hands is worth a serious try.

 

[MrChicken]

Para Ordnance P18 or Tac 5.

All steel 1911 in 9mm. 9mm is easy to shoot in the 1911 and the extra width of the double stack frame has spreads the recoil out over a wider area.