PowderMonkey
Member
How do you counter when an anti shoves this in your face...?
Handling anti's after this past Friday...
- Thread starter PowderMonkey
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mg.mikael
Member
You ask them where you can promptly purchase such a patriotic revolver.
Jaxondog
Member
It's people!!!!, not handgun's.
PowderMonkey
Member
Ha ha guys very funny.
I will give you the West Germany - I did not notice that. So we are talking a 20 year old piece here with old data.
But seriously how do you counter this?
I was on the Brady website this AM to see what my local anti's would be lobbing at me Monday AM.
Stuff like a home with a gun is 17x more likely to have a suicide or murder using that one gun, than it is to have it used in a justifiable defense situation.
Really, this is going to be a rough battle. You all should go look at what the anti's are going to be reading, and figure out how exactly you counter argue and how you plan to win hearts and minds when faced with the kind of data they have.
I will give you the West Germany - I did not notice that. So we are talking a 20 year old piece here with old data.
But seriously how do you counter this?
I was on the Brady website this AM to see what my local anti's would be lobbing at me Monday AM.
Stuff like a home with a gun is 17x more likely to have a suicide or murder using that one gun, than it is to have it used in a justifiable defense situation.
Really, this is going to be a rough battle. You all should go look at what the anti's are going to be reading, and figure out how exactly you counter argue and how you plan to win hearts and minds when faced with the kind of data they have.
PowderMonkey
Member
To that arguement I expect if I quote the 22 kids slashed in China mid last week - if they know their stuff - they will come back with - ZERO fatalities...
Let's face it guns are easy to use at close range and are SUPER effective on soft unexpecting targets... 79 shot in Aurora...
PowderMonkey
Member
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm an NRA member, card carrying USPSA shooter C class production shooter who also shoots 4-6 3Gun matches a year. I have a 'high powered weapons cache' that would make many envious. More high end AR's than fingers on a hand.
I'm just trying to get my feet under me. They have national emotion on their side this time. It was 20x freaking six year olds man... : (
I'm just trying to get my feet under me. They have national emotion on their side this time. It was 20x freaking six year olds man... : (
RDCL
Member
.....that Someone ruined a Colt python which........ by the way......just happened to be a weapon of choice among a lot of law enforcement officers during the era the ad was created.
.......so, what exactly is the ad trying to say?
.......so, what exactly is the ad trying to say?
smalls
Member
Tell em this is 'MERICA! and if they don't like handguns they're welcome to head to Canada at any time.
Aikibiker
Member
This is how I replied when friend from the UK posted that on Facebook:
He is an open minded fellow and was immediately able to bring to mind a similar attack in Ireland in 90's useing an improvised flamethrower. Thankfully no fatalities in that one, but several school children were burned.
This link has several more historical mass murder incidents that were not committed with firearms: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/07/mass_murder_a_modern_curse_hardly.html
One could also refference the recent knife attacks on Japanese and Chinese school children, including one that happened a couple hours before the Newtown CT attack in which 22 children and one adult were stabbed.
He is an open minded fellow and was immediately able to bring to mind a similar attack in Ireland in 90's useing an improvised flamethrower. Thankfully no fatalities in that one, but several school children were burned.
This link has several more historical mass murder incidents that were not committed with firearms: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/07/mass_murder_a_modern_curse_hardly.html
One could also refference the recent knife attacks on Japanese and Chinese school children, including one that happened a couple hours before the Newtown CT attack in which 22 children and one adult were stabbed.
tyeo098
Member
Id ask for a source and say that 300 MILLION gun owners killed NO ONE yesterday.
PowderMonkey
Member
What do you think it is trying to say?.....that Someone ruined a Colt python that........ by the way......just happened to be a weapon of choice among a lot of law enforcement officers during the era the ad was created.
.......so, what exactly is the ad trying to say?
Aikibiker
Member
The source is Handgun Control Inc. it is in the fine print below the revolver. There is also a version of the above photo with Brady Campaign logo in the lower left corner.
RDCL
Member
I guess I'm being sarcastic. The ad is disingenuous. An anti propaganda piece.
I want to see the number of deaths by other "weapons" from those other countries (knifes, baseball bats, etc) We all know if you take away one method, the person will find another way to do it.
On another note, "Every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver" (source: CDC) If you do the math, thats around 10,000 people per year as well. We better get these dangerous automobiles off the road before they hurt any more people.
On another note, "Every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver" (source: CDC) If you do the math, thats around 10,000 people per year as well. We better get these dangerous automobiles off the road before they hurt any more people.
PowderMonkey
Member
Already chased that argument - its rough. Look here -> http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
Summary is out of 13,000 homicides in the US in 2010, 8800 were by firearm.
The argument relating to vehicles is that they bring 99% obvious good to society in private citizens hands - can the same be said about firearms in light of all the mass shootings...?
Just had a difficult discussion with my parents. Its pretty hard, but it is also easy to show that guns historically have little connection to levels of violence. By most measures America is the most violent, always has, but no amount of gun control will change that, and that is the message
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, unequivocally.
And besides, "all the mass shootings" still equates to a cosmically small percentage of our population. Not even up to what would be considered a statistical anomaly.
Look at the research by Kleck, Lott and Mustard and others, and you'll see that firearms in the U.S. are used (if I recall correctly) about five times more often to stop/thwart crimes than to commit crimes.
Look at Russia, where guns are basically illegal, and few crimes are committed with guns – and yet their murder rate is something like 4 times higher than ours.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
Look at Russia, where guns are basically illegal, and few crimes are committed with guns – and yet their murder rate is something like 4 times higher than ours.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Oh, Lordy, I do so LOVE stuff like this!
How do you address something like this?
You start with the fact that none of this stuff has any links to back it up...so you start with some common sense stuff which either shows them to be wrong (facts) or discredits them.
For example...WHERE on the map is "West Germany"? West Germany went away on October 3, 1990 when Germany reunified. This automatically makes West Germany bogus.
As for firearm related deaths, let's take a look at a simple google search...I chose Wikipedia, but you can go to other sources if you choose since Wikipedia isn't necessarily considered valid (though they do list their sources for data).
I used the "Total firearm related deaths" statistics because this is what's implied in the poster. It doesn't mention homicides, accidents, suicides.
Japan: Claimed 48. 0.07 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 127,547,000. This is an actual 89 deaths, about twice that cited.
Britain: Claimed 8. 0.25 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 62,262,000. This is an actual 156 deaths, about twenty times that cited.
Switzerland: Claimed 34. 3.5 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 8,000,001. This is an actual 280 deaths, about eight times that cited.
HOWEVER, Switzerland's citizens are armed to the teeth. Things that make you say "Hmmmm..."
Canada: Claimed 52. 4.78 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 35,010,100. This is an actual 1673 deaths, about 28 times that cited.
Israel: Claimed 58. 1.86 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 7,956,000. This is an actual 148 deaths, about three times than that cited.
HOWEVER, Israel's citizens are also armed to the teeth. Things that make you say "Hmmmm..."
Sweden: Claimed 21. 1.47 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 9,546,217. This is an actual 140 deaths, seven times that cited.
West Germany: This nation has not existed for 22 years.
THEN you can go about citing some nations that have an even HIGHER per capita death rate by firearms than the United States, which is 9.0 per 100,000. Population 314,953,000, total deaths 28,346.
OF NOTE: all these countries have stricter gun control laws than the United States, with the exception of Panama, Guatemala, and Honduras.
South Africa: 9.41 per 100,000. Population 51,770,560, total deaths 4,872.
Philippines: 9.46 per 100,000. Population 92,337,852, total deaths 8,735.
Mexico: 11.14 per 100,000. Population 112,336,538, total deaths 12,514.
Panama: 12.92 per 100,000. Population 3,405,813, total deaths 439.
Brazil: 19.01 per 100,000. Population 193,946,886, total deaths 36,869.
Colombia: 28.11 per 100,000. Population 46,832,000, total deaths 13,164.
Swaziland: 37.16 per 100,000. Population 1,220,000, total deaths 453.
Guatemala: 38.52 per 100,000. Population 14,713,763, total deaths 5,667.
Honduras: 46.70 per 100,000. Population 8,385,072, total deaths 3,916.
Jamaica: 47.44 per 100,000. Population 2,709,300, total deaths 1,285.
El Salvador: 50.36 per 100,000. Population 6,183,000, total deaths 3,114.
Sources I used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
One might also consider looking into the history of genocide and demicide by these various countries and see how their history correlates with their gun laws. Pretty interesting stuff there...like Aparteid, and such, for example.
BY THE WAY...if I made a math error here, lemme know and I'll fix it.
How do you address something like this?
You start with the fact that none of this stuff has any links to back it up...so you start with some common sense stuff which either shows them to be wrong (facts) or discredits them.
For example...WHERE on the map is "West Germany"? West Germany went away on October 3, 1990 when Germany reunified. This automatically makes West Germany bogus.
As for firearm related deaths, let's take a look at a simple google search...I chose Wikipedia, but you can go to other sources if you choose since Wikipedia isn't necessarily considered valid (though they do list their sources for data).
I used the "Total firearm related deaths" statistics because this is what's implied in the poster. It doesn't mention homicides, accidents, suicides.
Japan: Claimed 48. 0.07 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 127,547,000. This is an actual 89 deaths, about twice that cited.
Britain: Claimed 8. 0.25 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 62,262,000. This is an actual 156 deaths, about twenty times that cited.
Switzerland: Claimed 34. 3.5 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 8,000,001. This is an actual 280 deaths, about eight times that cited.
HOWEVER, Switzerland's citizens are armed to the teeth. Things that make you say "Hmmmm..."
Canada: Claimed 52. 4.78 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 35,010,100. This is an actual 1673 deaths, about 28 times that cited.
Israel: Claimed 58. 1.86 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 7,956,000. This is an actual 148 deaths, about three times than that cited.
HOWEVER, Israel's citizens are also armed to the teeth. Things that make you say "Hmmmm..."
Sweden: Claimed 21. 1.47 deaths per 100,000 people. Population of 9,546,217. This is an actual 140 deaths, seven times that cited.
West Germany: This nation has not existed for 22 years.
THEN you can go about citing some nations that have an even HIGHER per capita death rate by firearms than the United States, which is 9.0 per 100,000. Population 314,953,000, total deaths 28,346.
OF NOTE: all these countries have stricter gun control laws than the United States, with the exception of Panama, Guatemala, and Honduras.
South Africa: 9.41 per 100,000. Population 51,770,560, total deaths 4,872.
Philippines: 9.46 per 100,000. Population 92,337,852, total deaths 8,735.
Mexico: 11.14 per 100,000. Population 112,336,538, total deaths 12,514.
Panama: 12.92 per 100,000. Population 3,405,813, total deaths 439.
Brazil: 19.01 per 100,000. Population 193,946,886, total deaths 36,869.
Colombia: 28.11 per 100,000. Population 46,832,000, total deaths 13,164.
Swaziland: 37.16 per 100,000. Population 1,220,000, total deaths 453.
Guatemala: 38.52 per 100,000. Population 14,713,763, total deaths 5,667.
Honduras: 46.70 per 100,000. Population 8,385,072, total deaths 3,916.
Jamaica: 47.44 per 100,000. Population 2,709,300, total deaths 1,285.
El Salvador: 50.36 per 100,000. Population 6,183,000, total deaths 3,114.
Sources I used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
One might also consider looking into the history of genocide and demicide by these various countries and see how their history correlates with their gun laws. Pretty interesting stuff there...like Aparteid, and such, for example.
BY THE WAY...if I made a math error here, lemme know and I'll fix it.
henschman
Member
When antis throw out statistics, I like to counter with this: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
The right to bear arms is not about hunting or sport. It is to make sure this kind of thing never happens in our country. When it comes to tyranny, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
If you read the text at the bottom of the handgun control poster, it says "the pen is mightier than the sword." I agree... monstrous ideas and philosophies are more directly responsible for a lot more deaths than any particular type of weapon. If you follow that line of thought to its logical conclusion, then the antis should be focusing more on putting prior restraints on speech than on weapons. Why does the average person tolerate the latter but not the former? It is up to us to make people realize that the right to bear arms is inseperable from all our other liberties... and to weaken any one is to weaken the security of them all.
The right to bear arms is not about hunting or sport. It is to make sure this kind of thing never happens in our country. When it comes to tyranny, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
If you read the text at the bottom of the handgun control poster, it says "the pen is mightier than the sword." I agree... monstrous ideas and philosophies are more directly responsible for a lot more deaths than any particular type of weapon. If you follow that line of thought to its logical conclusion, then the antis should be focusing more on putting prior restraints on speech than on weapons. Why does the average person tolerate the latter but not the former? It is up to us to make people realize that the right to bear arms is inseperable from all our other liberties... and to weaken any one is to weaken the security of them all.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Best to point out two things: First is that no law can prevent; it can only provide for punishment.
More importantly, this is not a gun problem. It is a mental health problem which is exacerbated by the failed system for dealing with mental illness.
A good example is provided by this soccer mom:
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html
More importantly, this is not a gun problem. It is a mental health problem which is exacerbated by the failed system for dealing with mental illness.
A good example is provided by this soccer mom:
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html
Sommerled
Member
I hear you Powdermonkey..
With the pain we all feel for CT comes anger. For some, that anger leads to quickly finding something/someone to blame. The vitriolic attacks we see on the NRA gives some relief for those who won't admit the core problems of mental illness, extremely realistic first person video violence/desensitization in media (protected by the 1st amend.), broken homes, and more.
Violent video games played for hours a day and the seriously mentally ill can't be a good combination.
There is so much anger at gun owners there is nothing that we can really say. I turn the conversation over to expressing shock and outrage over the tragedy and empathy for the victims. We are not complicit in this tragedy....
But I am troubled by what may come of it.
Sommerled
With the pain we all feel for CT comes anger. For some, that anger leads to quickly finding something/someone to blame. The vitriolic attacks we see on the NRA gives some relief for those who won't admit the core problems of mental illness, extremely realistic first person video violence/desensitization in media (protected by the 1st amend.), broken homes, and more.
Violent video games played for hours a day and the seriously mentally ill can't be a good combination.
There is so much anger at gun owners there is nothing that we can really say. I turn the conversation over to expressing shock and outrage over the tragedy and empathy for the victims. We are not complicit in this tragedy....
But I am troubled by what may come of it.
Sommerled
Well said. In Australia we had massive changes to Gun laws after Martin Bryant killed 35 people in Tasmania in 1996. After that all semi autos were banned, no mags of more than 10 round and the list went on and on. And still the antis want stricter laws and a total ban on handguns. We are always trying to defend our position on gun ownership. I read last night some woman in South Australia has started a toy gun buyback so her kids don't have plastic guns and its now a facebook item. The thing that pisses me off the most is all we hear about is the " GUN " but very little about the shooter. Its a horror story what happened in CT and feel for the parents and families, and also for the law abiding shooters in the US that have to deal with the repercussions..
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