Handloaded defense ammo - how could anyone tell?

[ChiefPilot]

Reading the thread on Mas Ayoob, I recall reading here and elsewhere many times that handloaded self defense ammo is a big no-no. I never gave it much thought until last fall, when I started loading my own .45ACP.

If I load up a batch of 50 Golden Sabre rounds, using Remington brass and primers, how would anyone even know they were handloads? And even if they were, how does that have any bearing on whether a shooting was justified or not?

I can understand how an attorney in a civil trial might try to make a big deal out of it, but in my state law puts the responsibility of injury directly on the perpetrator of a crime so I'm not so concerned about that part of it.

 

[Preacherman]

How will they know?

1. They'll ask you during the discovery process. (Don't try to lie, due to point 2 below.)

2. Forensic analysis of propellant residue will soon show that you were using a mass-market powder, rather than the proprietary blend Remington uses in their factory ammo.

3. If a search of your home is carried out, under a warrant or court order, and the reloading components are discovered, this will also give the game away.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

The burning question is, why should it even be a 'game'? Other than pedantry and filling in all the details, what does it matter?

You figure on the liability front you didn't shoot the guy with a gun to tickle him, you know?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Yep, they will ask, and you will have to tell them. If you lie, then you are really screwed.

 

[HankB]

1. They'll ask you during the discovery process. (Don't try to lie, due to point 2 below.).

Who's "They" in this context? IANAL, but if you're charged criminally, you have the right to remain silent - it's not your duty or obligation to help the prosecution make their case. Wouldn't discovery be pretty much limited to civil actions? And even in that case, wouldn't you have the right to remain silent if you were still facing possible criminal prosecution? (Agree that lying would be bad for you . . . of course, "I don't remember" is almost always a valid answer. In this specific instance, an answer of "Remington Golden Sabre" could arguably be a valid answer, since that's the brand of bullet, primer, and case . . . so long as you don't specify "Factory loaded.")

2. Forensic analysis of propellant residue will soon show that you were using a mass-market powder, rather than the proprietary blend Remington uses in their factory ammo.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Often times the manufacturers use powders identical to those used by handloaders, though in "non-cannister" grade; this means that the burning rates fall outside the "norms" for cannister-grade powder, and the manufacturer blends different lots of the same nominal powder type and/or adjusts powder charge to control the ammo's performance. Forensic analysis of the fired cases, on the other hand, may indicate "non-factory" markings which may be traced to handloading equipment. Also, note that some factory ammo is moisture sealed - you can see a smear of goop around the primer. Would YOUR handloads be identical?

3. If a search of your home is carried out, under a warrant or court order, and the reloading components are discovered, this will also give the game away.

Again, IANAL, but presence of reloading components, though suggestive, is no more proof of the use of handloaded ammo in a particular shooting than presence of a Corvette in the garage is proof of speeding. (If there's a warrant to search your home, it's likely you're the target of a criminal investigation.)

 

[Lone_Gunman]

HankB, the question they would as is "Did you load this ammo yourself? That requires yes, no, or no answer.

You can always take the 5th amendment in a criminal trial, but that doesn't look good to juries. I don't think you can take the 5th in a civil trial.

 

[Hypnogator]

Any forensic firearms examiner could tell from the fired case, and often from the bullet whether the rounds in question were factory or handloads. Moreover, because the police will seize your weapon, the unfired rounds will give you away, if nothing else.

As for your statement, I wouldn't bring it up, but as already stated, I wouldn't lie about it, either. Get caught in a lie, and it's easy for others to believe you lied about everything, including the facts which led you to believe your life was in danger.

Despite Ayoob's writings it shouldn't be a factor in a grand jury or criminal trial, and should be easy to counter in a civil action if you're expecting to be attacked on your use of "killer-diller super hot loads." May cost you some extra effort and expense hiring an expert to explain why handloads don't equal killer intent, though. FWIW, I carry factory loads because nowadays they're virtually 100% reliable and are as good as or better than anything I can cook up.

 

[ChiefPilot]

Thanks for the reply!

1. They'll ask you during the discovery process. (Don't try to lie, due to point 2 below.)

It seems like an odd thing to ask, but ok...

2. Forensic analysis of propellant residue will soon show that you were using a mass-market powder, rather than the proprietary blend Remington uses in their factory ammo.

Do they really do this all the time? If so, why?

3. If a search of your home is carried out, under a warrant or court order, and the reloading components are discovered, this will also give the game away.

I can see how that would prompt them to ask if the rounds were handloaded or not, but doesn't show anything one way or the other.

I don't really have any intention of rolling my own carry loads; I've never had a Gold Dot fail to fire and they are what the local PD carriers, albeit in a different caliber.

Thanks!

 

[Sam Adams]

There shouldn't be any difference whether you use a handload or a factory load to shoot someone. Either the shooting was justifiable or not, and it is a given that any round from any gun could be lethal. With a justifiable shooting, there probably won't be too many more questions from a prosecutor.

However, a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney out to get you will use the fact that you handloaded to make you look like someone who was looking to kill someone with a "super lethal" round of ammo. Nonsense, of course, but do you wish to pay a lawyer and an expert witness or 2 to defend against it?

I personally use factory ammo (Hydrashoks or Golden Sabers), and practice with handloads. I don't think that you can get Hydrashok bullets, but I've got a load of Golden Sabers. This'll let you practice with what you carry, at a considerably cheaper cost, while avoiding even potential problems in court.

 

[Lupinus]

excuse my ignorance....but why is handloade defense ammo a no no?

 

[Sistema1927]

Can anyone cite even one case where somebody who was involved in an otherwise "clean" shoot ever suffered any adverse consequences from using handloaded ammunition?

One?

If you were justified in shooting, then it shouldn't matter if you used a .22 or a 155 howitzer.

 

[pax]

The thing is, you may want to identify the kind of ammunition you used, even down to the lot number, for your defense. You may want or need to show exactly how far away you were when the shot was fired. The ammunition company keeps exemplars on file for such contingencies.

But if you handloaded the round, that evidence isn't going to be available to you. Even if you have exemplars you've filed yourself, your ammunition is a lot less likely to be admissible than factory-produced exemplars.

You'll probably be fine without it.

But why take the chance? Ammunition is cheap.

pax

 

[redneckrepairs]

But would you want to shoot someone with reloaded .45acp over 9mm factory









I know , i just couldnt help myself on this " dead horse" LOL

 

[HankB]

. . . the question they would as is "Did you load this ammo yourself? That requires yes, no, or no answer.

Well, if your wife/buddy/brother loaded the ammo, you could truthfully answer "no."

. . . but why is handloade defense ammo a no no?

Do a search of prior threads . . . the use of any ammo can be made an issue.

You may want or need to show exactly how far away you were when the shot was fired.

Or maybe you don't . . . in which case the use of handloaded ammunition may work to your advantage. (And this does not necessarily translate into it being a bad or unjustified shooting.)

 

[Art Eatman]

There is more to insurance than a policy on paper for which you pay some premium.

A self-defense handgun is insurance against an untoward event.

Same for the type of ammo.

The hypothesis is that there is a zealous anti-gun prosecutor. Next, the jury--in spite of your lawyer's efforts--has a majority of anti-gun and/or gun-ignorant people.

What should NOT be an issue can become an issue, and affect the finding of the jury.

Art

 

[Standing Wolf]

Whew! I sure am glad I live in Colorado, which has a Make my Day law.

 

[gezzer]

Another myth no one has been convicted for.

 

[beerslurpy]

I find it extremely unlikely that that would be asked or that anyone would try to analyze residues. At least around here. In NYC if it was some sort of big deal (with al sharpton protesting, etc) they might look over everything carefully, but around here I dont think the authorities really have much interest in prosecuting burglar shootings.

Once cops are used to the concept of everyone having guns, I dont think they really feel threatened by people shooting a burglar before they can arrive. Its like "oh no, someone saved us paperwork and effort" lol cry.

And I think a civil suit by a justifiably shot felon would be dismissed in pretrial because of the civil suit prohibition in self defense killings.