Zak Smith
Member
I don't bother chasing the lands with the 155's. When the barrel was new, I couldn't seat further than 2.85". To get them to touch now, I'd have to be well beyond 3.0". Still shoots great.
Handloading for Tikka t-3 308 Varmint
- Thread starter civilian75
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civilian75
Member
I forgot to mention I was chasing lands with 147gr ball. I realized yesterday this is very much a function of the bullet geometry as is the chamber's. Haven't tried but I guess I will have very different results with my 180's BTips.
civilian75
Member
168gr SMK Range Report
Range Report
I hand loaded 50rds of 168gr SMK and fired 35 of the 50 with my Tikka t3 308 varmint rifle at the 100yd range last Saturday. Loaded five 10 rounds groups with Reloder 15, with the following charges: 42.0, 43.0, 44.0, 44.5 and 44.8gr. I chrono-ed all but one of the shots and recorded both velocities and point of impact.
At this point you can either continue reading (no pic) or read the complete report with pictures click here.
Positive side:
* Shot my first hand loaded ammo. Felt awesome!
* 100% primers fired (no high primers).
* Even at my worst, none of the shots landed more than 3” off the point of aim.
* No evidence of overpressure. Highest loads increased case OD to just over the spec (.4703”). You can hardly notice it visually.
* Best group (a five shot group) was one MOA. If you take two “fliers” out of a 10 shot group (bringing it down to a 8 shot group), it becomes a slightly sub MOA group.
* This is the first time I leave the range w/o shoulder pain and it feels awesome, not just for my shoulder’s sake but my ego. Weaker loads, or, better technique? I think the latter. Seems like I am getting better. First three visits, not even a limb saver would spare me from the humiliation.
Negative side:
* All muzzle velocities for all loads were ~ 100 fps below expectations
* All standard deviations were over 20 fps. The best two were 22 and 24 fps.
* IMO, load, rifle and shooter combination have not yet achieved “tack driving” status.
Observations:
* I noticed that while firing the weaker loads, recoil and muzzle rise where barely noticeable. Obvious to the learned, but a surprise the The Newbie.
* Point of impact vertical locations appear to correlate to muzzle velocities. "Thank you Cp't Obvious" said my teenaged son.
* Case expansion appear to correlate to muzzle velocities
* Variability seems to reduce as the loads increase; standard deviations stay about the same or drop a little as muzzle velocities increase. But I categorically cannot confirm this because of errors in the data collection. (inconsistent sample sizes). Highest stdev: 31(five shot sample size) , lowest stdev: 20 (ten shot sample size).
* It seems like for the given powder (RL15) and case size, I can’t overload, thus, create excessive pressures. I can possible even push it compresses loads w/o risk to life and limb.
Data analysis and comments:
For a newbie marksman and hand loader, maybe these are great results. But I had higher expectations.
* I was particularly disappointed by the lower speeds attained. As per Speer’s manual #14 and Nossler website loading data, I was expecting velocities either exceeding 2700 fps or pretty darn near. Temp was 47F and pressure at 30.20” Hg. Both higher than standard temp & press. But that should not make a difference in muzzle velocities!
* I was also disappointed by the high standard deviations. I carefully measured every single load to ensure an error of under 0.1gr. One thing I did not do and now in hindsight I regret, was to measure and record the weight of the bullets. A weak lot of RL15 powder also crossed my mind.
* I also regret not firing all 10 loads on groups 1 thru 3 (50 total). The plan was to fire two 5rd of groups of each load, 5 by me and five by my son, who is a better shot than me. Unfortunately, he made other plans and could not come along. At the range, poor performance of the first three loads brought the cheapster out of me who though “I ‘d better re-do them puny loads”.
* I cannot fully explain why there was so much variation in the horizontal axis with no other than blaming the shooter. I had a 6-9” bi-pod attached to the fore end and I stabilized the butt stock with a sand bag. If I ignore the 2nd 5-shot group of 44.5gr loads, I’d say there is small correlation between muzzle velocity increase and a reduction of horizontal spread. But w/o conducting any correlation analysis, it is only speculation. Thru the whole shooting session I had to put with wind varying both in magnitude and direction. That can’t be blamed for more than maybe 0.5” of the error, though.:-/
Next steps
* Unless someone tells me I am crazy, I am going to try more loads, i.e. 45.0gr, 45.2gr and maybe even 45.3, if I can compress them into the case.
* I will not try to put ten rounds in the same target again. It was a very poor move for data collection. Will do three shot groups from now on. I kept track of round locations and order of firing on little notebook. It is very easy to do with three shots. But as the number of impacts to record increases, it becomes exponentially harder to keep it all straight.
* I can’t wait to get my 8# Varget jug. There has to be a reason why it seems to be the preferred .308 cal powder. The same goes with my order of 200 Lapua cases and 155gr Scenars.
* I hate losing the sight picture and tend to apply a death grip to the fore end and pull down very hard to prevent the muzzle rise. I also noticed accuracy suffers considerably when I do that. I have taken steps to install a compensator. (Fingers crossed it is not a waste of money).
* Should I toss the bipod and go with sandbags? Or, should I buy a shooting stand. I have resisted that move because it takes away most of the fun. But maybe this is what I need to do when I am developing a load. The shooter needs to improve, and that takes practice, which is the main reason why I resist the shooting stand. I have limited resources and time and hate to leave it to the stand to do my shooting. Isn’t the bi-pod and sandbag bad enough already?
Conclusion:
I really, really want to bring the muzzle velocity standard deviation to single digits or at least to the low teens. I feel that If I don’t, long distance shooting (300yds and up) will be an artillery exercise. I hope this plan puts me in the right track. I have yet to learn to relax consistently and maintain a firm (not a death) grip of my firearm. Takes practice. That should hopefully take care of the horizontal axis variation.
Range Report
I hand loaded 50rds of 168gr SMK and fired 35 of the 50 with my Tikka t3 308 varmint rifle at the 100yd range last Saturday. Loaded five 10 rounds groups with Reloder 15, with the following charges: 42.0, 43.0, 44.0, 44.5 and 44.8gr. I chrono-ed all but one of the shots and recorded both velocities and point of impact.
At this point you can either continue reading (no pic) or read the complete report with pictures click here.
Positive side:
* Shot my first hand loaded ammo. Felt awesome!
* 100% primers fired (no high primers).
* Even at my worst, none of the shots landed more than 3” off the point of aim.
* No evidence of overpressure. Highest loads increased case OD to just over the spec (.4703”). You can hardly notice it visually.
* Best group (a five shot group) was one MOA. If you take two “fliers” out of a 10 shot group (bringing it down to a 8 shot group), it becomes a slightly sub MOA group.
* This is the first time I leave the range w/o shoulder pain and it feels awesome, not just for my shoulder’s sake but my ego. Weaker loads, or, better technique? I think the latter. Seems like I am getting better. First three visits, not even a limb saver would spare me from the humiliation.
Negative side:
* All muzzle velocities for all loads were ~ 100 fps below expectations
* All standard deviations were over 20 fps. The best two were 22 and 24 fps.
* IMO, load, rifle and shooter combination have not yet achieved “tack driving” status.
Observations:
* I noticed that while firing the weaker loads, recoil and muzzle rise where barely noticeable. Obvious to the learned, but a surprise the The Newbie.
* Point of impact vertical locations appear to correlate to muzzle velocities. "Thank you Cp't Obvious" said my teenaged son.
* Case expansion appear to correlate to muzzle velocities
* Variability seems to reduce as the loads increase; standard deviations stay about the same or drop a little as muzzle velocities increase. But I categorically cannot confirm this because of errors in the data collection. (inconsistent sample sizes). Highest stdev: 31(five shot sample size) , lowest stdev: 20 (ten shot sample size).
* It seems like for the given powder (RL15) and case size, I can’t overload, thus, create excessive pressures. I can possible even push it compresses loads w/o risk to life and limb.
Data analysis and comments:
For a newbie marksman and hand loader, maybe these are great results. But I had higher expectations.
* I was particularly disappointed by the lower speeds attained. As per Speer’s manual #14 and Nossler website loading data, I was expecting velocities either exceeding 2700 fps or pretty darn near. Temp was 47F and pressure at 30.20” Hg. Both higher than standard temp & press. But that should not make a difference in muzzle velocities!
* I was also disappointed by the high standard deviations. I carefully measured every single load to ensure an error of under 0.1gr. One thing I did not do and now in hindsight I regret, was to measure and record the weight of the bullets. A weak lot of RL15 powder also crossed my mind.
* I also regret not firing all 10 loads on groups 1 thru 3 (50 total). The plan was to fire two 5rd of groups of each load, 5 by me and five by my son, who is a better shot than me. Unfortunately, he made other plans and could not come along. At the range, poor performance of the first three loads brought the cheapster out of me who though “I ‘d better re-do them puny loads”.
* I cannot fully explain why there was so much variation in the horizontal axis with no other than blaming the shooter. I had a 6-9” bi-pod attached to the fore end and I stabilized the butt stock with a sand bag. If I ignore the 2nd 5-shot group of 44.5gr loads, I’d say there is small correlation between muzzle velocity increase and a reduction of horizontal spread. But w/o conducting any correlation analysis, it is only speculation. Thru the whole shooting session I had to put with wind varying both in magnitude and direction. That can’t be blamed for more than maybe 0.5” of the error, though.:-/
Next steps
* Unless someone tells me I am crazy, I am going to try more loads, i.e. 45.0gr, 45.2gr and maybe even 45.3, if I can compress them into the case.
* I will not try to put ten rounds in the same target again. It was a very poor move for data collection. Will do three shot groups from now on. I kept track of round locations and order of firing on little notebook. It is very easy to do with three shots. But as the number of impacts to record increases, it becomes exponentially harder to keep it all straight.
* I can’t wait to get my 8# Varget jug. There has to be a reason why it seems to be the preferred .308 cal powder. The same goes with my order of 200 Lapua cases and 155gr Scenars.
* I hate losing the sight picture and tend to apply a death grip to the fore end and pull down very hard to prevent the muzzle rise. I also noticed accuracy suffers considerably when I do that. I have taken steps to install a compensator. (Fingers crossed it is not a waste of money).
* Should I toss the bipod and go with sandbags? Or, should I buy a shooting stand. I have resisted that move because it takes away most of the fun. But maybe this is what I need to do when I am developing a load. The shooter needs to improve, and that takes practice, which is the main reason why I resist the shooting stand. I have limited resources and time and hate to leave it to the stand to do my shooting. Isn’t the bi-pod and sandbag bad enough already?
Conclusion:
I really, really want to bring the muzzle velocity standard deviation to single digits or at least to the low teens. I feel that If I don’t, long distance shooting (300yds and up) will be an artillery exercise. I hope this plan puts me in the right track. I have yet to learn to relax consistently and maintain a firm (not a death) grip of my firearm. Takes practice. That should hopefully take care of the horizontal axis variation.
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Zak Smith
Member
First off, if the rifle is brand new and has not been fired, it is common for it to take up to a couple dozen rounds for the barrel to settle in. Some people believe in shoot/clean break-in cycles. Regardless, it is not uncommon for velocity to settle down as you fire tens of rounds.
Measuring the body of the case won't tell you much, IMO. There is a method for determining overpressure that involves case head expansion (and you want less than one thou). However, if the primers look OK and you don't see any marks on the case head and the velocities are within a reasonable range, you're probably OK.
Don't worry too much about the velocities being below "expectations" unless those expectations are from a system substantially similar to your own.
Likewise, before you get disappointed by the accuracy of the load, make sure that you are capable of shooting the group sizes you seek from the rifle. Don't take any of this personally- they are just variables to account for. I have days when I shoot like crap and it's nothing more than a waste of ammo.
Do not shoot off a Harris bipod. It's terrible for accuracy especially when on a hard surface. For load testing, use sandbags front and rear. The goal of load testing is to eliminate variables and test the load only.
With regard to both accuracy and velocity SD, loads often do not perform well unless in the right pressure/burn rate range. With your fastest load only about 2600 there is a very good chance you are below this range. I have not used RL15 so I am not sure how close you are to max with that powder, but from a 22-26" barrel you should be able to get the 168's going 2700-2850 fps. I know it can be done with Varget (my favorite 308 powder). My shooting partner uses RL15 with the 155's with success, though.
Having SD's of 20 isn't the end of the world, but it's nice to have them in the single digits.
Some powder compression is not bad. People shooting the lighter bullets in .308 seem to have this issue, and I don't know of anyone having problems. My 155 load is somewhat compressed (expressed as a slight "crunch" when I seat the bullets). I know someone who uses another full grain over my load and his are much more compressed.
Hope this helps
Measuring the body of the case won't tell you much, IMO. There is a method for determining overpressure that involves case head expansion (and you want less than one thou). However, if the primers look OK and you don't see any marks on the case head and the velocities are within a reasonable range, you're probably OK.
Don't worry too much about the velocities being below "expectations" unless those expectations are from a system substantially similar to your own.
Likewise, before you get disappointed by the accuracy of the load, make sure that you are capable of shooting the group sizes you seek from the rifle. Don't take any of this personally- they are just variables to account for. I have days when I shoot like crap and it's nothing more than a waste of ammo.
Do not shoot off a Harris bipod. It's terrible for accuracy especially when on a hard surface. For load testing, use sandbags front and rear. The goal of load testing is to eliminate variables and test the load only.
With regard to both accuracy and velocity SD, loads often do not perform well unless in the right pressure/burn rate range. With your fastest load only about 2600 there is a very good chance you are below this range. I have not used RL15 so I am not sure how close you are to max with that powder, but from a 22-26" barrel you should be able to get the 168's going 2700-2850 fps. I know it can be done with Varget (my favorite 308 powder). My shooting partner uses RL15 with the 155's with success, though.
Having SD's of 20 isn't the end of the world, but it's nice to have them in the single digits.
Some powder compression is not bad. People shooting the lighter bullets in .308 seem to have this issue, and I don't know of anyone having problems. My 155 load is somewhat compressed (expressed as a slight "crunch" when I seat the bullets). I know someone who uses another full grain over my load and his are much more compressed.
Hope this helps
robsc
Member
Get the 8 lb. powder size of whatever you decide on. Stock up for the next 4-10 years because all components are going to be hard to find and expensive.
H380, W748, IMR3031, Varget, all give superb results in the .308win.
H380, W748, IMR3031, Varget, all give superb results in the .308win.
civilian75
Member
Zac,
Signed,
The Newbie.
... just kidding... Guess it is ok in the field over dirt or when you can't do better, but better left home when going to the range. Thanks for the tip.
No direct comments about trying hotter loads. But, from your comments I gather it is not a bad idea to proceed cautiously with hotter loads.
Thanks a bunch once again for all the useful info.
You said a couple of dozens. The rifle has barely been shot with. I shot 171 with surplus ball before the last session at the range. That's slightly more than a couple fo dozen. But I get your point. I gotta be patient. Tikka ships when the rifle is under MOA and it meets. Thank's for the tip.
over my head (no pun intended. Bulging around the primer seating? Recesed rim indentation disappearing? A pic = 1k words.
No offense taken.
Signed,
The Newbie.
So much I had guessed (suspected). I am shooting indeed over a hard (cement) surface. Maybe if I put the bag under the bi-pod? The bi-pod just looks sooo tacticool!
... just kidding... Guess it is ok in the field over dirt or when you can't do better, but better left home when going to the range. Thanks for the tip. A crunch? Nice tip!
How can I tell? Is it by the "crunch"?
No direct comments about trying hotter loads. But, from your comments I gather it is not a bad idea to proceed cautiously with hotter loads.
Thanks a bunch once again for all the useful info.
Zak Smith
Member
I didn't remember what you had said about the rifle's history, so I just gave the general advice.
On the case head expansion thing, I didn't go into it on purpose. You can search and find descriptions of this method, however, it's not really needed. I just meant that the method of measuring body diameter doesn't really tell anything useful. This is what you should look for:
No, crunch tells you nothing about how close you are to max pressure. It is simply the sound stick-type powders make when you seat the bullet into the powder column, if you have a compressed load.
If you do not know what pressure indicators to look for at this point, stop. As you develop more loads, you will begin to learn the clues of low loads, appropriate loads, slightly hot loads, and overpressure loads. Suffice to say, for now, follow the best load data you can find, and be on the lookout for any indicators you've read about. The most common things you'll see first are marks on the case head, extrusion and smearing of the ejector recess, primer edges that look smeared flat, or primer indents that look like volcanos ("cupped").
One should by all means be careful when working up a load. However, this doesn't mean you can't make any progress. If the fire cases and primers look fine, and you are below book or [professionally-] published data, and the velocity is not where it should be, then you can usually proceed.
On the case head expansion thing, I didn't go into it on purpose. You can search and find descriptions of this method, however, it's not really needed. I just meant that the method of measuring body diameter doesn't really tell anything useful. This is what you should look for:
No, crunch tells you nothing about how close you are to max pressure. It is simply the sound stick-type powders make when you seat the bullet into the powder column, if you have a compressed load.
If you do not know what pressure indicators to look for at this point, stop. As you develop more loads, you will begin to learn the clues of low loads, appropriate loads, slightly hot loads, and overpressure loads. Suffice to say, for now, follow the best load data you can find, and be on the lookout for any indicators you've read about. The most common things you'll see first are marks on the case head, extrusion and smearing of the ejector recess, primer edges that look smeared flat, or primer indents that look like volcanos ("cupped").
One should by all means be careful when working up a load. However, this doesn't mean you can't make any progress. If the fire cases and primers look fine, and you are below book or [professionally-] published data, and the velocity is not where it should be, then you can usually proceed.
1858rem
Member
is that^^^ anything like the 40 dollar bipod at walmart?
interesting group at 44.5, same place is where my sweet spot seemed to be and avg 2573fps but my SD and ES are way worse than yours but my chrono skills suck have shot it three times(guide wires lol) and get a lot of err2 and err1 lol
forgot to add im using RL-15 also
Last edited:
Detritus
Member
The wal-mart bipod is made to look like the Harris to a large extent, but in my own oppinion and the oppinion of many others i've spoken to over the years, is no where near the same quality (and the Harris is only about $20-30 more).
for awhile now Harris has been the "known name" in bipods, there are much better and much worse designs out there. but "harris" adn Versa-pod are the names everyone seems to know.
i thnk the main intent of Zak's comment was that load workup and evaluation should not be done over ANY bipod, but instead over as stable and steady a rest as possible. otherwise you're adding additional variables and not getting a true test of the load.
as to what bipod those of us who want or need to use one (F-T/R shooters come to mind) should be looking into, i certainly have no clue anymore. and would love to hear suggestions myself, but this isn't my thread.
Zak Smith
Member
Exactly. It's hard to get more stable than 30 lbs of sandbags.
civilian75
Member
what leads me to believe that 168 SMK and RL51 is an underperforming combination. One thing I am hating about Sierra is that I can't find the loading tables in their web site (guess I have to "buy"
the data).After giving it some thought, I am going to save the little RL15 I have left for a winning/proven recipe.
Zak Smith
Member
According to QuickLoad, max for a 168 SMK with RL15 should be around 46.0 grains, at 2830 fps from a 26" bbl. This does not account for brass internal volume differences, bore "tightness", chamber differences, etc. For Varget, it was 44.8 gr and 2785 fps. Note that these are computed values ONLY.
If you're down in the 2500's, there's a good chance you're just not getting efficient burn (like, Pmax under 45 kpsi).
If you're down in the 2500's, there's a good chance you're just not getting efficient burn (like, Pmax under 45 kpsi).
civilian75
Member
Been working under the assumption of a 45.0gr max, as per Manual #14.
The t3 is a 23.75" long barrel. I hope that does not change the 46.0gr theoretical max load?
I installed the Quickload Demo. GUI has not been updated in over 10 years it seems. Since you already have obviously mastered it and might have little motivation to upgrade, you may not acquire a more updated internal/external ballsitic s/w. For a newbie like me, what else is out there that might be the best choice and good value, IYO?
The t3 is a 23.75" long barrel. I hope that does not change the 46.0gr theoretical max load?
I installed the Quickload Demo. GUI has not been updated in over 10 years it seems. Since you already have obviously mastered it and might have little motivation to upgrade, you may not acquire a more updated internal/external ballsitic s/w. For a newbie like me, what else is out there that might be the best choice and good value, IYO?
Zak Smith
Member
Well, this is not necessarily contradicting #14-- it's another data point. Your rifle and components may act differently than the manual, and differently than QuickLoad. This is why we start low and do a work up.
Barrel length does not change the max load.
I don't know of any other internal ballistics modeling program besides QuickLoad. It is well worth its price, however.
Barrel length does not change the max load.
I don't know of any other internal ballistics modeling program besides QuickLoad. It is well worth its price, however.
civilian75
Member
JD, thanks for the data. Now my results are even more disconcerting, for I should have more than reached the publsihed speeds with the loads I tried.
Playing aorund with the Quikload Demo I realized I may have messed my numbers by using a 2.825" COAL instead of a 2.800".
Zac, if you read this, would you mind plugging 2.825" to Quickload? How much lower the pressures are? Could that account for a siginficant chunck of the 200-300 fps reduction?
Playing aorund with the Quikload Demo I realized I may have messed my numbers by using a 2.825" COAL instead of a 2.800".
Zac, if you read this, would you mind plugging 2.825" to Quickload? How much lower the pressures are? Could that account for a siginficant chunck of the 200-300 fps reduction?
Zak Smith
Member
Assuming you're already off the lands, 0.025 won't make much difference- hardly any. QL predicts a 11 fps difference.
civilian75
Member
Here is my second range report. I think I found the sweet spot. It is 45.0gr, which provides a mean 2600-ish fps muzzle velocity, and a std dev of 13.7. Also, obtained inconclusive data that might indicate that a variation of 0.3gr in bullet weight may cause a change of 14 fps in average muzzle velocity. The highest load used, 45.8gr, did not reach 2700 fps. Actual average was 2663 fps. Cases and primers did not show signs of over pressure.
Complete report with picture here
Complete report with picture here
Zak Smith
Member
That's still well below where you can be with 168's. Heck, the most common handload using the 175 SMK is 2700 fps (using Varget).
civilian75
Member
Which has me totally baffled. How tight can a barrel be? How off can a powder be? How can Speer and Sierra load data be so different to what I am getting? Is my little legacy scale out of wack? Or, is it my weighting technique? How bad my bullet sitting, case prepping can be? Or, are the CCI LR BR2 to blame? I suspected my chronny but other fireamrs clock within reason (I wish I could borrow a chronny to validate mine).
Other than my handloands, I've fired 147gr FN and DAG ball. Both clocked pretty low IMHO:
FN: ave: 2650, n: 12, stdev: 27
DAG: ave: 2569, n: 17, stdev: 39
If the barrel is tight, in my mind, trying higher loads is asking for trouble, the serious kind. I've been so afraid to blow my head off that I've pretty much fired the hole 100 rd box very cautiously working up the loads until i read one that will scream "stop". That is a very expensive and dangerous way to develop a new load. I am seriously having 2nd thoughs about hand loading after this
My last ditch plan was to go to the 200/300 range and meaure actual bullet drop. Will have to wait a couple of weeks 'cause it is booked till the end of the month.
Other than my handloands, I've fired 147gr FN and DAG ball. Both clocked pretty low IMHO:
FN: ave: 2650, n: 12, stdev: 27
DAG: ave: 2569, n: 17, stdev: 39
If the barrel is tight, in my mind, trying higher loads is asking for trouble, the serious kind.
I've been so afraid to blow my head off that I've pretty much fired the hole 100 rd box very cautiously working up the loads until i read one that will scream "stop". That is a very expensive and dangerous way to develop a new load. I am seriously having 2nd thoughs about hand loading after this My last ditch plan was to go to the 200/300 range and meaure actual bullet drop. Will have to wait a couple of weeks 'cause it is booked till the end of the month.
Zak Smith
Member
As you allude to, it's a complex system. There's nothing wrong with having an accurate but a-little-bit-slow load, except when you start to reach out to long range.
I would focus on:
* double-checking your chrono (compare it against another hrono, or a known load in another rifle)
* make sure your scale checks out (use check weights or check against a known good scale)
* it's probably NOT any of your components, case prep, seating depth, etc
It is possible your barrel is just "slow," but it would surprise me if it was 200 fps slow.
Also, it is very good to be cautious in load development; you're doing that exactly right. However, note that you've never seen any pressure indicators at all, and all the photos I've seen of your brass have been perfect. If "X" grains of powder is "MAX", X + 0.1gr isn't going to blow up your gun. You might start to see slight ejector mark, or your primer corners may be a little less rounded, you might see some cupping on the firing pin indent, etc.
Here is a photo from a .338LM work up.
............... Larger version of above photo.
You can see minor cupping on the firing pin indents. You can see the radius on the corners of the primers is sharper/smaller than it is on the unfired primers. You can see slight ejector marks.
By all means be cautious and careful. At this point, you have some data that doesn't "add up" and there are quite a few variables you can eliminate before trying to increase the load.
I would focus on:
* double-checking your chrono (compare it against another hrono, or a known load in another rifle)
* make sure your scale checks out (use check weights or check against a known good scale)
* it's probably NOT any of your components, case prep, seating depth, etc
It is possible your barrel is just "slow," but it would surprise me if it was 200 fps slow.
Also, it is very good to be cautious in load development; you're doing that exactly right. However, note that you've never seen any pressure indicators at all, and all the photos I've seen of your brass have been perfect. If "X" grains of powder is "MAX", X + 0.1gr isn't going to blow up your gun. You might start to see slight ejector mark, or your primer corners may be a little less rounded, you might see some cupping on the firing pin indent, etc.
Here is a photo from a .338LM work up.
............... Larger version of above photo.
You can see minor cupping on the firing pin indents. You can see the radius on the corners of the primers is sharper/smaller than it is on the unfired primers. You can see slight ejector marks.
By all means be cautious and careful. At this point, you have some data that doesn't "add up" and there are quite a few variables you can eliminate before trying to increase the load.
civilian75
Member
Zac, I don't what I'd do w/o your advice! Like ur Demigod site. Would love to see more on the 7.62x39 subsonic. Back to topic…
Question: ejector marks, are they the brigth scratched arcs over the lettering? This is a great picture!
I am taking a couple of weeks to think things thru. I feel it is necessary I validate the scale, the chrono and even the rifle. Firing known good, reliable, reputable ammo is not a hard one. Borrowing a chrono is a toss up. The scale seemed to work fine with 168gr bullets, but, then again, that is almost 4x the powder weight range.
EABCO promised to ship my Lapua cases & scenars today. I definitely want to clear this up before I start working up a new load and handload a couple hundred fresh 168 SMK. And I definitely had no intentions of going hotter either.
Question: ejector marks, are they the brigth scratched arcs over the lettering? This is a great picture!
I am taking a couple of weeks to think things thru. I feel it is necessary I validate the scale, the chrono and even the rifle. Firing known good, reliable, reputable ammo is not a hard one. Borrowing a chrono is a toss up. The scale seemed to work fine with 168gr bullets, but, then again, that is almost 4x the powder weight range.
EABCO promised to ship my Lapua cases & scenars today. I definitely want to clear this up before I start working up a new load and handload a couple hundred fresh 168 SMK. And I definitely had no intentions of going hotter either.
X-Rap
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 6,657
I'm just a rookie but have taken some advise given here and started with a smaller caliber. My 308 is shooting real well at 300 with 46.2 gr. of blc-2 under a 168gr. BTHP match Hornady. Getting 2 -3 cutting the same hole with 5 shot groups at the longest distance I can get at my range.
1858rem
Member
very nice, id like my gun to do that at 100 yds, but have not even shot it latley cuz i dont want to start flinching again, least till i find a consistent-er .5" or less load for my .204........ .1" c-2-c aint hard to get, but thats only for 3/5 shots ,im lookin for ten into .5" in 10 min before i go back to the 308
Zak Smith
Member
Ejector smear (go to the big version here for more detail
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?medium=A100_1533_img.jpg
)
............... Larger version of above photo.
Left to right
#1 on "22" of "223"
#3 on "E" of WinchEster
#4 on C of Winchester
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/?medium=A100_1533_img.jpg
)
............... Larger version of above photo.
Left to right
#1 on "22" of "223"
#3 on "E" of WinchEster
#4 on C of Winchester
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