hardening wheel weight lead?

[skua44]

Hi Guys/Gals; I seem to remember a someone mentioning that wheel weight bullets can be hardened some by dropping the hot bullet from the mold into water. That's pretty straight-forward. Also a mention of tempering the bullets in an oven. Does anyone have info on how long in the oven and at what temp? Also, would there be concerns over vapor, etc., from the lead in the oven? I can liberate wheel weights from a local tire shop for nada, at least until they find they they can sell them. Have a 5 gal bucket full and need to start melting.

 

[NuJudge]

Just drop them from the mold

Nothing fancy here.

If you are going to heat the bullet up and quench it, you need to take it up near the 'slumping' point, then drop them into a bucket of water. Try not to drop a hot bullet on a resilient tile floor that can melt.

Lead alloys vary widely in melting temperature. A bullet does not melt all at once, there are microscopic areas that froze last that will be melting first. I spent two semesters at the University of Michigan studying Eutectics, or how the composition of what's freezing changes with temperature for some alloys. For maximum effect, it would be good to have the bullet nearing the slumping point.

The cookie sheet you do this on should not be used for cookies later.

 

[Walkalong]

I dropped all my bullets from the mold into ambient temperature water in a 5 gallon bucket. I used a mixture of wheelweights with a little 95/5 solder mixed in. The bullets worked great for .45 ACP and .44 Spl. with no leading.

Be carefull about solder these days. Not all "95/5" is lead and antimony anymore. Read the label. The bullets would probably work great with straight wheelweights as well though.

The water makes it easy to collect the bullets. No dropping on rags etc. and does harden the alloy a little.

 

[The_Antibubba]

Gee, I bet they'd get really hard if I dropped them in a bucket of liquid nitrogen!

 

[RustyFN]

Just wondering why you would need to make WW harder than they already are. I don't cast yet myself but know some people that do. I get bullets from them and they already seem pretty hard to me. I can't make a mark in them with my thumbnail.
Rusty

 

[Ndenway]

plenty of info on alloys and heat treating cast bullets here: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

 

[brickeyee]

Add some antimony.
I still have a few hundred pounds of linotype metal hanging around, but you can purchase straight antimony.
There are any number of recipes hanging around.
You also have to make sure that operating pressures are in line with hardness.
A .45 ACP does not need very hard bullets, and they will not obturate well.
A full house .357 load needs something pretty stiff to not lead the barrel badly (along with a good lube),

 

[Bula]

Just curious, what calibers are you planning to cast for?

 

[skua44]

Thanks much for the input. I think I'm good to go with this as soon as it cools off enough around here to work outside around hot lead with all the safety garb and not drown in my own sweat. Ndenway, the web site you suggested is a good 'un. Thanks. Bula, I usually mold for 45lc, 45acp, 38/357 and am toying with the idea of getting a mold for 8x57. Don't have any experience with gas checks and will have to stumble my way through that one. Thanks again, y'all.

 

[Bula]

skua44, You should be ok with straight WW on the pistol calibers you listed. As for the rifle mold with a gas check, not sure there. I do run checks on some of my heavy .357 mag loads-nice but not necessary at pistiol velocites. I have loaded some pretty heavy loads without'em too-different mold of course, they work great too. They do add a bit to the sizing/lubing process but they go on pretty quick. My biggest problem with them is the price! oh well, still a TON cheaper than any jacketed bullet. be carefull and have fun.

 

[rcmodel]

Wheel weight alloy is plenty hard enough for the uses you intend them for.
The only one where you might need gas-checks is hot .357 and the 8mm rifle.

Trying to "temper" them in cold water is not necessary.
Besides, they won't stay tempered anyway if you keep them around for a while.

If you do decide to try tempering them, please do it in an oven, and not by dropping them out of the mold into a bucket of water on the floor under the lead pot!

Just one drop of water splashed into a molten lead pot will likely result in a trip to the emergency room.


rcmodel

 

[Walkalong]

The tiniest bit of water in your lead pot will ruin your entire day for sure.

Just ask any old plumber, or bullet caster.

 

[davinci]

oh come on, how many of you guys have gotten "just one drop of water" in your pot and ended up in the emergency room?

Water doesn't mix with molten lead, just as it doesn't mix with hot vegetable oil. When you drop your turkey in the fryer, it sizzles and the water on the surface is immediately vaporized and pops and bubbles, same is true with lead. Stand back, as lead is hotter than vegetable oil, and you'll be fine.

Two weeks ago I set up my melter on a sunny but cloudy Sunday afternoon on the deck for what was going to be my first casting session in months, after about 30 minutes the alloy was ready to be poured, so I start casting. (I cast onto a towel now, not a water bucket like I used to) then I hear thunder and unplug my pot and duck for cover (because of these silly stories I hear on these forums about water and lead) a moment later it was raining, and I'm thinking "oh no, my pot is going to explode and I'll be scraping the lead off my brick house for a long time."

it rained for a bit, enough to get the ground nice and wet. went back outside and the lead was hard, with a few craters and bubbles in it, but there was no lead anywhere else. Maybe because the water was coming straight down so the heat off the pot was boiling the water off before it got to the lead? how did it get craters and bubbles in it?

I just plugged my pot back in, this time out under the garage and let the lead melt again, then cast the rest. No harm, no foul, no problems, lots of bullets and a good way to spend a rainy day. I wouldn't, however, suggest you pour a mountain dew into your pot, that may be what some folks talk about when they say massive explosions that end you in a hospital. I can't think of a better thing to do on a rainy day than make some bullets.

 

[Walkalong]

Hey davinci. I guess you have never seen a lead pot blow all its lead out like a bomb from getting water in it. Not a pretty sight. It may not happen everytime, but it happens and it is dangerous.

Ya'll be carefull out there.

If the lead is already hot and the water gets under the surface of the lead it will blow like h***.

The water boils, expanding its volume tremendously, and it displaces the lead in the pot. VERY impressive.

I wish I could remember the expansion rate, but I cannot. Oxygen is something like 376% from liquid to gas. We have liquid Oxygen tanks here at the hospital.

 

[armoredman]

This is known as a "visit from the tinfoil fairy". I have been very careful to avoid it!
Casting very hard will backfire, if the bullet doesn't seal against the bore, and gas leakage occurs, you will get leading like crazy. I cast straight wheelweight, dropped on a towel, and have zero leading in my 38 Spl rounds, lubed with Lee Liquid Alox.

 

[zxcvbob]

I really doubt that water splashing into the lead pot will do anything impressive. It will instantly boil *on top* of the lead.

The tiniest bit of water trapped in a crevice of a piece of metal that you toss into the pot of liquid lead will be carried below the surface where it can cause a steam explosion like everybody is talking about.

I drop my bullets into a pan of water about 2 feet from my lead pot. I'll be casting some bullets this week; I may just put on my goggles and welding gloves and try one drop on water in the lead pot with an eyedropper to find out what happens. OTOH, I might chicken out ;-)

 

[snuffy]

The tiniest bit of water in your lead pot will ruin your entire day for sure.

Just ask any old plumber, or bullet caster.

Perhaps this is another "internet myth" that we all see, believing it without question. I too have "heard" it, I don't want to find out for myself by trying it. Reason would say that it would hiss and spit/bubble on the surface of the lead, just as it does on a hot skillet.

I DO know what happens when a shotshell primer cooks off in a pot full of melted lead! Talk about a visit from the tinsel fairy!:banghead:

 

[fireflyfather]

Here's a thought: I have a 1000watt burner that won't quite melt lead past the clumpy/grainy/almost liquid point, even in small batches with a thin pan. If you are worried about those wheel weights having moisture on them, you can preheat them on a separate burner to evaporate any surface water before you dump them into your liquid lead to refill your pot.

Any thoughts on that? (Also, I have seen people cast using electric burners. How the hell do they get the lead hot enough?...those RCBS/Lyman/Lee pots are all electric too....)

 

[zxcvbob]

I have seen people cast using electric burners. How the hell do they get the lead hot enough?...those RCBS/Lyman/Lee pots are all electric too....

I have 2 electric hotplates; a 750W with open coils, and a 1000W with a cast iron (?) element. The 750W gets much hotter. I'm not sure if the 1000W even gets hot enough for bullet casting because it has a thermostat and that big heavy iron top it has to heat.

I even use the little one to smelt the slag I skim off (mix it with a little oily sawdust and cook in a covered stainless steel pot for half an hour or so) to reduce the lead oxide back to lead.

The couple of pounds of lead I get probably isn't worth the trouble, but I feel better about recovering it rather than sending it to the landfill.

 

[Walkalong]

Perhaps this is another "internet myth" that we all see,

I have seen it with my own eyes and work with a master plumber who tells of the same thing back in the day when they used lead and iron pipe. (yea, PVC has not been around forever). It is not a myth. It may not be common place for sure, but it is not a myth. When you have molten lead running down your back or stuck in your hair be sure to post about the myth, after you get well, of course.

rcmodel - We try to tell these younguns, but some won't listen. :banghead:

 

[DuncanSA]

When I was young and stupid (now I'm somewhat older) I made the mistake of using a metal spoon that had some droplets of water adhering to it to stir the melting pot. Believe me, the "tinsel fairy" can become very real in the right circumstances! Fortunately I was wearing eye protection, gloves and a leather apron - it was really dramatic. They say we learn from our mistakes and I sure learned from this one!

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

When the water gets below the surface of the molten lead the water flashes to steam and expands ,displacing the molten lead ! It is likely that the surface of your lead pot skinned over and prevented the water from getting below the surface of the lead ! I believe that when water flashes to vapor at atmospereic pressure it expands something like 10,000 times ! About using the oven to heat treat lead ! I would get a cheap toaster oven and use it just for this purpose ! so you dont risk getting lead contamination in the home oven !! have fun ,be careful

 

[Walkalong]

Quote From Here - Underline mine

When liquid water comes in contact with a very hot substance (such as lava, or molten metal) it can flash into steam very quickly; this is called a steam explosion. Such an explosion was probably responsible for much of the damage in the Chernobyl accident and for many so-called 'foundry accidents'.

But I still can't find the expansion rate. :banghead:

 

[brickeyee]

"But I still can't find the expansion rate."

Use a steam table.

 

[Russt]

I have a Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. I tried to scan the page but I'm not smart enough to get it from point A to B so here goes.
This is for wheelweight metal. Arsenic is the key, the amount dosen't matter.
1..Cast bullets in your normal manner, saving some for scraps.
2..Size, but do NOT lubricate.
3..Place a few scrap bullets in an oven and increase the temperature slowly until you notice the bullets starting to slump, starting at 450. Use an accurate oven thermometer.
4..Once the test bullets start to melt, back off the temp 5-10 degrees and place the cast bullets in the oven for 30 minutes to an hour.
5..Remove bullets and plunge them in cool water.
6..When you're ready to lube, install a sizing die .001 larger than the one used for sizing the bullet to prevent the sides of the bullet from work softening.
7..Load normally.
I've tried it on some .308's for a 30/30 and a .458 for my 45/70. I could'nt tell any difference with leading between the heat treated or not treated. I use Lee Liquid Alox and just size then tumble lube them. I use straight wheelweights and haven't had a problem with leading. I drop them in a bucket of water right out of the mould. I cast 4 weights and types of .358, 2 types of .308, 2 types of .458, 3 types of .430, 3 types of .452, and 1 .356 for the 9mm. I've been casting bullets for about a year.
I've been casting fishing lures, spinnerbaits, sinkers, and jig heads since I was 13, I'm 36 now. I'll assure you a 3lb Lee lead pot will empty itself faster than you can jump out of the way, with just a drop of water. I have the scars to prove it. Needless to say I'm extreeemly careful while casting nowadays.