thelaststand
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Would a Brinell hardness of 16 be good enough to push a lead cast bullet with gas check to 2000+ fps?
Hardness for lead cast rifle bullets (with gas check).
- Thread starter thelaststand
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243winxb
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Maybe, many variables involved.
thelaststand
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So an alloy with 2% tin and 6% antimony, with the rest being lead would be ok to use to cast bullets for rifles?
I've been searching for information on this all day without a good answer. i'm about to buy some lead but I'd like to make sure I'm not screwing it up.
I've been searching for information on this all day without a good answer. i'm about to buy some lead but I'd like to make sure I'm not screwing it up.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
See this about that:
http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php
And a very good bullet lube will be necessary at that velocity level too.
That hard blue Crayon stuff on store bought bullets isn't it.
The Lyman cast bullet handbook, as well as the Lyman #49 load manual is required reading for anyone contemplating cast bullets at 2,000+ FPS too!
Better get sum before you order bullets for that application.
rc
http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php
And a very good bullet lube will be necessary at that velocity level too.
That hard blue Crayon stuff on store bought bullets isn't it.
The Lyman cast bullet handbook, as well as the Lyman #49 load manual is required reading for anyone contemplating cast bullets at 2,000+ FPS too!
Better get sum before you order bullets for that application.
rc
loose noose
Member
I'll have to check my notebook to be absolutely certain, but I'm pretty sure that my 30-30 loads using wheel weights, and a hornady gas check were chronographing at 2100 fps using a 150 grain.
LAGS
Member
At 2000 FPS I would say you should be using Linotype Lead with a Brinnell Hardness of 22 rather than a Lyman #2 blend of 15 or 16. even with a gas check.
That is what I use in my .308 and 7.62x54 as well as 8mm and .303 and have never had an excessive lead issue.
But with Lyman #2, I start to show leading starting at 1800 FPS with most of my barrels.
It all depends on the barrel and the twist also, not just the FPS or the pressure.
That is what I use in my .308 and 7.62x54 as well as 8mm and .303 and have never had an excessive lead issue.
But with Lyman #2, I start to show leading starting at 1800 FPS with most of my barrels.
It all depends on the barrel and the twist also, not just the FPS or the pressure.
thelaststand
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Thanks LAGS, I'll be getting the Linotype rather than the Layman #2.
LAGS
Member
@ Thelaststand
Getting the Lino is good.
Then if you mix some of the Linotype with equal weight of Lead or Wheelweights, you can make yourself some Lyman #2 mix for the lower volocity loads up to 1800 FPS and still not worry about leading.
I make my own Lino blend and am currently buying the 92-6-2 ( Equal to #2 ) mix already smelted in 60 lb ingots.
Oh , I can also take the 92-6-2 mix and add the right amount of Tin and Antimony and make it into Linotype.
But I like the Linotype for my .357 Mag and my rifles better than the #2.
The #2 I mostly use in the .38's , .45's and 9mm's, but straight Wheel weights works well in those if shot under 900 FPS.
Getting the Lino is good.
Then if you mix some of the Linotype with equal weight of Lead or Wheelweights, you can make yourself some Lyman #2 mix for the lower volocity loads up to 1800 FPS and still not worry about leading.
I make my own Lino blend and am currently buying the 92-6-2 ( Equal to #2 ) mix already smelted in 60 lb ingots.
Oh , I can also take the 92-6-2 mix and add the right amount of Tin and Antimony and make it into Linotype.
But I like the Linotype for my .357 Mag and my rifles better than the #2.
The #2 I mostly use in the .38's , .45's and 9mm's, but straight Wheel weights works well in those if shot under 900 FPS.
I wouldn't immediately discount the BHN of 16 for a gas checked boolit at that speed. If you're casting your own (which I think you are) then experiment with it before you go to the extra time and expense of changing the alloy. Without a gas check I'd say you were too soft but with one quite possibly not.
wgaynor
Member
In my .30-.30, I use straight wheel weights that are air cooled and gas checked. the lube is a homemade mix of beeswax, crayon for color, and petroleum Jelly. A bit harder lube is better. Velocity with IMR4895 is around 2200 fps (No Chrony, so mostly guesswork). Accuracy is superb and no leading.
May not work for you, but wanted to give you real life experience. As stated, bullet fit, pressure, and others come into play.
May not work for you, but wanted to give you real life experience. As stated, bullet fit, pressure, and others come into play.
bluetopper
Member
I buy commercial gas check bullets and shoot them that fast with no leading.
I think their mixture is about 20bhn however.
I think their mixture is about 20bhn however.
loose noose
Member
Using the wheel weights with a gas check, I haven't noticed any leading at all, I resize them using a .311 sizing die, and lube them with a hard lube, (blue), very accurate. I did check my notebook and noted the velocity to be an average of 2179 fps using 150 grn. round nose.
LAGS
Member
I have to make a Clarification.
Most of my rifles that I shoot Lead Bullets are Mil Surp with Worn or rougher Bores, so they are prone to leading.
But I shoot GC'ed Wheel weight bullets out of my 30-06 with a NEW barrel to 2000 FPS with No Leading and same with the Lyman #2 mix.
You have to make the determination on what will work in your rifle, and what LUBE works best too for your Volocity.
So I am sure that if the OP's rifle has a Newer Barrel, the Lyman #2 will work fine for him at 2000 + FPS.
But since I hate cleaning lead out of a bore, I opt for the harder lead to be safe.
And Since I enjoy smelting up the Pure Lead I get off my construction jobs, I make my own Lino where I can to cut the cost of buying it.
Having it Smelted to a Harder blend to start with, allows me to Blend it down if I want to cut costs, and use up somemore of the pure lead I already have sitting around.
I would go broke if I had to be Buying my Linotype lead.
But Smelting and Blending is not for everyone, I agree.
Most of my rifles that I shoot Lead Bullets are Mil Surp with Worn or rougher Bores, so they are prone to leading.
But I shoot GC'ed Wheel weight bullets out of my 30-06 with a NEW barrel to 2000 FPS with No Leading and same with the Lyman #2 mix.
You have to make the determination on what will work in your rifle, and what LUBE works best too for your Volocity.
So I am sure that if the OP's rifle has a Newer Barrel, the Lyman #2 will work fine for him at 2000 + FPS.
But since I hate cleaning lead out of a bore, I opt for the harder lead to be safe.
And Since I enjoy smelting up the Pure Lead I get off my construction jobs, I make my own Lino where I can to cut the cost of buying it.
Having it Smelted to a Harder blend to start with, allows me to Blend it down if I want to cut costs, and use up somemore of the pure lead I already have sitting around.
I would go broke if I had to be Buying my Linotype lead.
But Smelting and Blending is not for everyone, I agree.
blarby
Member
Id be happy to donate a stick of my 2500 fps lube for your experiment if you could handle the shipping.
the sticks are sized for any manual lube sizer, but you will need a heater on it.
If you like it, i can give you the ordering and recipe number to get it from the mfr.
Once you try a true high speed lube, youll never use the blue crayon again.....
the sticks are sized for any manual lube sizer, but you will need a heater on it.
If you like it, i can give you the ordering and recipe number to get it from the mfr.
Once you try a true high speed lube, youll never use the blue crayon again.....
A couple of posters mentioned it isn't the Brinell that allows you to get speed. It also isn't the gas check. They are merley parts of the formula. Bullet fit in the bore and the throat are very important pieces of the puzzle also. Loading cast bullets is very different from reloading with jacketed bullets.
There are a couple of cast bullet websites, lots of knowledge on them.
There are a couple of cast bullet websites, lots of knowledge on them.
bayjoe
Member
At 16 BHN with a gas check hard enough? Yes if you water drop the bullet that will increase your hardness substantially.
I use 3% Tin, 3.75% Antimony, .3 % Copper and the rest lead. I water drop resize and add gas check. Use this in 308 and 22 caliber with no leading
I use 3% Tin, 3.75% Antimony, .3 % Copper and the rest lead. I water drop resize and add gas check. Use this in 308 and 22 caliber with no leading
thelaststand
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I will be loading for 8mm mauser and k31 surplus rifles.
You won't know without trying. I load 1:2 lino:WW GC'd cast bullets to around 2200fps with no lead fouling and pretty good accuracy. I might could go lower, I've just never tried. I shoot GC'd straight WW alloy to around 1800fps. I use recluse lube (LLA and JPW).
I don't water drop anything, but my bullets sit around for several weeks/months before shooting.
I don't water drop anything, but my bullets sit around for several weeks/months before shooting.
heycods
Member
I shoot 170 FNGC out of a 30/06 at 2150 FPS with straight WW and Lee liquid alox lube, with no leading at all. I think it is a matter of pressure, bullet fit, and lube more than anything else. A BHN of 16 is good enough, and adequate for a hunting round in the right bullet as well.
As far as the gas checks, I use Hornadys' and my own aluminum and notice no difference at all.
As far as the gas checks, I use Hornadys' and my own aluminum and notice no difference at all.
wgaynor
Member
I consider reloading an art. Bullet Casting is black magic...
This got me thinking that I can't remember when I last fired a jacketed bullet in one of my guns! I still have lots of jacketed bullets collecting dust, but I rarely, if ever, even look at them.
You guys hit it dead on.... casting is like black magic and there's nothing like melting some lead and making some boolits.
You guys hit it dead on.... casting is like black magic and there's nothing like melting some lead and making some boolits.
35 Whelen
Member
YEP!!! This exactly.
Too, there are so many variables that come in to play with this question:
1) What's the condition of the bore? If it's nice and smooth, it'll be far less likely to lead. I own a 1903A3 on which someone installed a brand new, in-the-wrapper, made in 1943 barrel right before I purchased the rifle. It's a smooth and shiny as a chrome bumper.
2) How much leading can you tolerate? I worked up a load for the above mentioned rifle running a 173 gr. FP, cast from air-cooled wheelweights (11.5-12 Bhn), just a smidge over 2000 fps. It leads some with this load so that I have to dry-brush it every 6 - 8 rounds. This is no big deal because I occasionally deer hunt with the rifle and would never fire more than a shot or two in one hunting trip.
3) What will you use the load for? If it's a hunting load, stay away from linotype because while it makes hard bullets, it's a brittle alloy and from what I understand bullets thereof tend to shatter when they encounter bone. If it's for target shooting and plinking it won't matter.
35W
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