has anyone ever chrono-ed the effect of COL changes from min to max in 9x19
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Ironicaintit
Member
Yay, I finally got some time to unload these puppies over a chrono.
And the results were...inconclusive.
Recap: 115 grain Sierra JHP, stuffed into Norma brass, over 5.8 grains of (Hercules) Unique, lit by a CCI small pistol primer. Means of delivery was a Browning Hi Power.
Chrono was 10 ft away, about 60 degrees F.
@ 1.060 OAL. These felt perfectly normal to me. Recoil's not bad, and they're pretty zippy. Fired primers are a bit flat, but nothing Id worry about.
- 1253 fps
- 1277
-error
-1255
-1250
@ 1.050 OAL. I noticed no discernible difference in recoil or report. A couple fired primers were more cratered than the rest.
-1268
-error
-1220
-1237
-1259
@ 1.040 OAL. The recoil felt the same, but the report seemed to be more pronounced, like it had more bark than the longer rounds.
-1253
-1282
-1257
-1257
-error
@ 1.030. I didnt like these. The primers were fully flat, with cratering, and 3 of them had some leakage around the primer. The report definitely had picked up a harsh bark with this bunch.
-1261
-1246
-1240
-error
-error
I did not fire the 1.020 set. I felt the pressure was getting peaky, and I was getting no increase in FPS. To go further down that road would be folly.
And the results were...inconclusive.
Recap: 115 grain Sierra JHP, stuffed into Norma brass, over 5.8 grains of (Hercules) Unique, lit by a CCI small pistol primer. Means of delivery was a Browning Hi Power.
Chrono was 10 ft away, about 60 degrees F.
@ 1.060 OAL. These felt perfectly normal to me. Recoil's not bad, and they're pretty zippy. Fired primers are a bit flat, but nothing Id worry about.
- 1253 fps
- 1277
-error
-1255
-1250
@ 1.050 OAL. I noticed no discernible difference in recoil or report. A couple fired primers were more cratered than the rest.
-1268
-error
-1220
-1237
-1259
@ 1.040 OAL. The recoil felt the same, but the report seemed to be more pronounced, like it had more bark than the longer rounds.
-1253
-1282
-1257
-1257
-error
@ 1.030. I didnt like these. The primers were fully flat, with cratering, and 3 of them had some leakage around the primer. The report definitely had picked up a harsh bark with this bunch.
-1261
-1246
-1240
-error
-error
I did not fire the 1.020 set. I felt the pressure was getting peaky, and I was getting no increase in FPS. To go further down that road would be folly.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Duvel,
3 for 3, I need to go to the horse races and bet the exacta
Thanks for checking even though they were not on the powder list.
I probably could not have picked three that were not there if I was trying.:banghead:
If Red Dot is listed you can use it for the Promo if you don't mind checking some more for me. (I would appreciate it)
Are any of these on the list, HP38, Universal Clays or WSF?
I will load up another batch to test using one of them if one is on the list.
I really would like to see how close QL comes to the vels I get.
I was thinking 3.7 or Universal or HP38, or 4gr of WSF.
Bullet is BHN18 .356 dia (forgot to mention this before)
Been thinking about purchasing QL and am curious how well it estimates pistol rounds.
3 for 3, I need to go to the horse races and bet the exacta
Thanks for checking even though they were not on the powder list.
I probably could not have picked three that were not there if I was trying.:banghead:
If Red Dot is listed you can use it for the Promo if you don't mind checking some more for me. (I would appreciate it)
Are any of these on the list, HP38, Universal Clays or WSF?
I will load up another batch to test using one of them if one is on the list.
I really would like to see how close QL comes to the vels I get.
I was thinking 3.7 or Universal or HP38, or 4gr of WSF.
Bullet is BHN18 .356 dia (forgot to mention this before)
Been thinking about purchasing QL and am curious how well it estimates pistol rounds.
Dudedog
HP-38, Red Dot, and UNIVERSAL are available (note: generally, shotgun powders are not included in QL) - I can run some #s tomorrow afternoon.
http://webcity.net/benchrest/OtherChrono/9mmAllPowders.html lists MY experience with QL's predictions in 9mm.
The one, potentially significant, factor that was not always accurate (in the models) was temperature - I used QL's default of 70deg, and while I rarely shot in extremes, there were 50 deg, and 85 deg days.
HP-38, Red Dot, and UNIVERSAL are available (note: generally, shotgun powders are not included in QL) - I can run some #s tomorrow afternoon.
http://webcity.net/benchrest/OtherChrono/9mmAllPowders.html lists MY experience with QL's predictions in 9mm.
The one, potentially significant, factor that was not always accurate (in the models) was temperature - I used QL's default of 70deg, and while I rarely shot in extremes, there were 50 deg, and 85 deg days.
Ironicaintit
Member
Apparently! I'll admit that my standard load @ 1.060 is probably on the ragged edge of "safe", as far as pressure goes. So squeezing them down even further could get them across that threshold. The primer leakage wasnt great...just a thin black ring around the perimeter of it.Walkalong said:
When I seated the .030 and .020 rounds....that powder was getting squeezed very tight.
I wasnt sure if the degree of compaction would contribute to sudden increases in dynamic pressure.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Duvel,
thanks for checking to see what is on the list and thanks for the link.
I think I will load up one more test batch with a fairly light charge of Universal say 3.7gr.
Got a bit of payback time today for working on the weekend, but the range is closed today, so no testing.today
thanks for checking to see what is on the list and thanks for the link.
I think I will load up one more test batch with a fairly light charge of Universal say 3.7gr.
Got a bit of payback time today for working on the weekend, but the range is closed today, so no testing.today
Irionicaintit
Decrease in fps / primer leakage - I think your pressures are a bit on the warm side
I haven't pushed Unique, so I don't know if it behaves like Power Pistol, actually losing velocity as signs of nastiness rear their ugly head.
Didn't get flattened primers, just some flow back http://webcity.net/benchrest/unique.html
Decrease in fps / primer leakage - I think your pressures are a bit on the warm side
I haven't pushed Unique, so I don't know if it behaves like Power Pistol, actually losing velocity as signs of nastiness rear their ugly head.
Didn't get flattened primers, just some flow back http://webcity.net/benchrest/unique.html
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Ironicaintit
Member
Duvel,
Yeah, I wont run them that short. This was just for giggles in the name of science. The topic came up and I was curious.
Now, im half thinking of seeing how long I can make them, while still cycling reliably, finding a new max OAL, and then bumping up the powder to reach my original FPS (mid 1200s).
But I dunno if I will. Im pretty content with my recipe.
Yeah, I wont run them that short. This was just for giggles in the name of science. The topic came up and I was curious.
Now, im half thinking of seeing how long I can make them, while still cycling reliably, finding a new max OAL, and then bumping up the powder to reach my original FPS (mid 1200s).
But I dunno if I will. Im pretty content with my recipe.
9mm
4"
.356 Coated
.611L
125gr
Start init: 1160
Friction proof: No
Universal 3.7gr
1.060 Pvel 1,017 Pmax 28.6K
1.050 Pvel 1,029 Pmax 30.5K
1.040 Pvel 1,041 Pmax 32.7K
1.030 Pvel 1,055 Pmax 35.3K
1.020 Pvel 1,068 Pmax 38.3K
HP-38 3.7gr
1.060 Pvel 1,017 Pmax 32.3K
1.050 Pvel 1,028 Pmax 34.6K
1.040 Pvel 1,039 Pmax 37.2K
1.030 Pvel 1,052 Pmax 40.3K
1.020 Pvel 1,065 Pmax 44.0K
for the benefit of those who don't know: SAMMI MAP
for 9mm Luger is 35K.
4"
.356 Coated
.611L
125gr
Start init: 1160
Friction proof: No
Universal 3.7gr
1.060 Pvel 1,017 Pmax 28.6K
1.050 Pvel 1,029 Pmax 30.5K
1.040 Pvel 1,041 Pmax 32.7K
1.030 Pvel 1,055 Pmax 35.3K
1.020 Pvel 1,068 Pmax 38.3K
HP-38 3.7gr
1.060 Pvel 1,017 Pmax 32.3K
1.050 Pvel 1,028 Pmax 34.6K
1.040 Pvel 1,039 Pmax 37.2K
1.030 Pvel 1,052 Pmax 40.3K
1.020 Pvel 1,065 Pmax 44.0K
for the benefit of those who don't know: SAMMI MAP
for 9mm Luger is 35K.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Don't want to go to short.
looks like about 1.04 at the most for Universal 1.05 for HP38.
The shortest I loaded was 1.06. Glad I quit going shorter there.
Interesting to see the pressure numbers, from 1.06 to 1.02 =.04 is 10K+ more pressure wise and that's with what I would consider a light load with both powders.
Thanks for running the numbers I appreciate it.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
With BE86, Promo (red dot) and Universal I loaded 1.14, 1.12, 1.10, 1.08. I loaded the same with Autocomp and also loaded 1.065.
The pressure #s look reasonable so I will load some with the 3.7 of Universal at 1.065. (my normal Universal load for this bullet is 4gr @ 1.10 -1.11)
At 1.065 this bullet is pretty deep in the case. Will shoot a pic and post it later. (sprinklers running between me and the shed at the moment)
Hopefully I should be able to make it to the range this weekend to test and will post vels.
The pressure #s look reasonable so I will load some with the 3.7 of Universal at 1.065. (my normal Universal load for this bullet is 4gr @ 1.10 -1.11)
At 1.065 this bullet is pretty deep in the case. Will shoot a pic and post it later. (sprinklers running between me and the shed at the moment)
Hopefully I should be able to make it to the range this weekend to test and will post vels.
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9mm
4"
.356 Coated
.611L
125gr
Start init: 1160
Friction proof: No
Universal 3.7gr
1.140 Pvel 937 Pmax 19.3K
1.120 Pvel 955 Pmax 20.9K
1.100 Pvel 974 Pmax 22.9K
1.080 Pvel 995 Pmax 25.4K
1.065 Pvel 1,011 Pmax 27.7K
for the benefit of those who don't know: The above PREDICTIONS were generated with QuickLOAD (QL), A computer program. QL simulation results should not be confused with, or used in lieu of, PUBLISHED DATA.
4"
.356 Coated
.611L
125gr
Start init: 1160
Friction proof: No
Universal 3.7gr
1.140 Pvel 937 Pmax 19.3K
1.120 Pvel 955 Pmax 20.9K
1.100 Pvel 974 Pmax 22.9K
1.080 Pvel 995 Pmax 25.4K
1.065 Pvel 1,011 Pmax 27.7K
for the benefit of those who don't know: The above PREDICTIONS were generated with QuickLOAD (QL), A computer program. QL simulation results should not be confused with, or used in lieu of, PUBLISHED DATA.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Thanks for running those numbers as well.
Looks like I should be able to make it to the range Sunday so we will see what they chrono at.
At only about 20fps per .02 it will be interesting to see if I can detect any measurable difference between rounds at the .02 step.
Interesting how the numbers run. From 1.14 to 1.10 -- .04 less only a slight increase in pressure 3K, when going from 1.06 to 1.02 -- .04 +10K close to 3 times as much.
I know these are estimates but this to me is a good example how you can get yourself in trouble with to short an OAL.
3.7 of Universal is a tiny bit below the recommended start charge with a lead 125 so if you were ok at a MAX charge at say 1.12, 1.06 with the same charge could be bad news.
Thanks again for the numbers
I may have to purchase QL if I get any money back at tax time.
(one can always dream...)
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gonoles_1980
Member
Duvel was that FP or RN you used for the COL's? I am guessing RN.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
OK some numbers from today.
Temp about 80F, Primers S+B small pistol. (these tend to be about 20 fps slower for me than CCI SP)
Mixed Range brass, multiple reloads, Lee FCD used lightly
Taraus PT99 5" (it has a longer chamber than some of my other 9s)
3.7 Universal Clays
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 1017 995 1000 1026 1009 995
Avg 1007.00 ES 31 SD 12.66 PF 125.88
OAL 1.12 1030 1019 1026 1031 1024 1037
Avg 1027.83 ES 18 SD 6.24 PF 128.48
OAL 1.10 1017 1020 1024 1033 1042 1027
Avg 1027.17 ES 25 SD 9.15 PF 128.4 ??? Slower than 1.12 ???
OAL 1.08 1045 1046 1056 1044 1044 1048
Avg 1047.17 ES 12 SD 4.58 PF 130.9
3.5 PROMO
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 998 1009 1002 1008 1012 1003
Avg 1005.33 ES 14 SD 5.20 PF 125.67
OAL 1.12 1004 1010 999 1020 1014 1021
Avg 1011.33 ES 22 SD 8.76 PF 126.42
OAL 1.10 1019 1023 1008 1011 1015 1005
Avg 1013.50 ES 18 SD 6.80 PF126.69
OAL 1.08 1015 1010 1012 1011 1016 1024
Avg 1014.67 ES 14 SD 5.13 PF 126.83
Interseting #s for Promo, Promo is very fluffy excellent case fill on all loads (VMD for my jar of Promo works out to .14, 1gr =.14cc, 3.5gr = about .49cc)
Quick measure of a 9mm case gave me .9 grams of H2O so .9cc (only tested one case, used DS750, I should have got out the GEM20 for this)
I would have thought Promo being the fastest powder tested would have shown more spread.
I may try testing Bullseye or Titegroup for the fast powder.
4.4 BE86
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 1023 999 1012 1030 1010 1003
Avg 1013.00 ES 31 SD 11.79 PF 126.63
OAL 1.12 1024 1032 1030 1026 1014 1028
Avg 1025.67 ES 18 SD 6.38 PF 128.21
OAL 1.10 1017 1014 1020 1023 1035 1029
Avg 1023.00 ES 21 SD 7.82 PF 127.88
OAL 1.08 1049 1053 1039 1054 1048 1055
Avg 1049.67 ES 16 SD 5.92 PF 131.21
4.6 Autocomp
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 1001 1006 1008 1014 1018 1012
Avg 1009.83 ES 17 SD 6.08 PF 126.23
OAL 1.12 1032 1042 1027 1022 1026 1015
Avg 1027.33 ES 27 SD 9.16 PF 128.42
OAL 1.10 1049 1051 1052 1038 1059 1040
Avg 1048.17 ES 21 SD 7.88 PF 131.02
OAL 1.08 1054 1065 1059 1062 1056 1063
Avg 1059.83 ES 11 SD 4.26 PF 132.48
OAL 1.065 1080 1072 1067 1064 1063 1074
Avg 1070.00 ES 17 SD 6.54 PF 133.75
Temp about 80F, Primers S+B small pistol. (these tend to be about 20 fps slower for me than CCI SP)
Mixed Range brass, multiple reloads, Lee FCD used lightly
Taraus PT99 5" (it has a longer chamber than some of my other 9s)
3.7 Universal Clays
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 1017 995 1000 1026 1009 995
Avg 1007.00 ES 31 SD 12.66 PF 125.88
OAL 1.12 1030 1019 1026 1031 1024 1037
Avg 1027.83 ES 18 SD 6.24 PF 128.48
OAL 1.10 1017 1020 1024 1033 1042 1027
Avg 1027.17 ES 25 SD 9.15 PF 128.4 ??? Slower than 1.12 ???
OAL 1.08 1045 1046 1056 1044 1044 1048
Avg 1047.17 ES 12 SD 4.58 PF 130.9
3.5 PROMO
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 998 1009 1002 1008 1012 1003
Avg 1005.33 ES 14 SD 5.20 PF 125.67
OAL 1.12 1004 1010 999 1020 1014 1021
Avg 1011.33 ES 22 SD 8.76 PF 126.42
OAL 1.10 1019 1023 1008 1011 1015 1005
Avg 1013.50 ES 18 SD 6.80 PF126.69
OAL 1.08 1015 1010 1012 1011 1016 1024
Avg 1014.67 ES 14 SD 5.13 PF 126.83
Interseting #s for Promo, Promo is very fluffy excellent case fill on all loads (VMD for my jar of Promo works out to .14, 1gr =.14cc, 3.5gr = about .49cc)
Quick measure of a 9mm case gave me .9 grams of H2O so .9cc (only tested one case, used DS750, I should have got out the GEM20 for this)
I would have thought Promo being the fastest powder tested would have shown more spread.
I may try testing Bullseye or Titegroup for the fast powder.
4.4 BE86
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 1023 999 1012 1030 1010 1003
Avg 1013.00 ES 31 SD 11.79 PF 126.63
OAL 1.12 1024 1032 1030 1026 1014 1028
Avg 1025.67 ES 18 SD 6.38 PF 128.21
OAL 1.10 1017 1014 1020 1023 1035 1029
Avg 1023.00 ES 21 SD 7.82 PF 127.88
OAL 1.08 1049 1053 1039 1054 1048 1055
Avg 1049.67 ES 16 SD 5.92 PF 131.21
4.6 Autocomp
MBC 125 Coated Cone
OAL 1.14 1001 1006 1008 1014 1018 1012
Avg 1009.83 ES 17 SD 6.08 PF 126.23
OAL 1.12 1032 1042 1027 1022 1026 1015
Avg 1027.33 ES 27 SD 9.16 PF 128.42
OAL 1.10 1049 1051 1052 1038 1059 1040
Avg 1048.17 ES 21 SD 7.88 PF 131.02
OAL 1.08 1054 1065 1059 1062 1056 1063
Avg 1059.83 ES 11 SD 4.26 PF 132.48
OAL 1.065 1080 1072 1067 1064 1063 1074
Avg 1070.00 ES 17 SD 6.54 PF 133.75
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OK, I need some guidance here. A few months ago I posted a thread about OAL consistency and how much variance there was in my lengths. Several of you answered that .05 to .10 variance was normal and nothing to be concerned about. (Mine go from about 1.129 to 1.135 and I always say I load to ~1.133)
But in this testing being done in this thread you're only changing .02. How do you get such consistent measurements? what kind of press and dies are you using. I'm using a Lee classic turret press. Am I doing something wrong?
But in this testing being done in this thread you're only changing .02. How do you get such consistent measurements? what kind of press and dies are you using. I'm using a Lee classic turret press. Am I doing something wrong?
Ironicaintit
Member
I think the biggest factor in cartridge OAL consistency, is the bullet itself.
I really like Sierra because of that. Very good stuff.
Ive reloaded pulled bullets, and the OALs were all over the place (relatively speaking)
I really like Sierra because of that. Very good stuff.
Ive reloaded pulled bullets, and the OALs were all over the place (relatively speaking)
Dudedog
Contributing Member
I did not measure every round for the test, and try to make them "Perfect" OAL wise.
I set a target OAl loaded a couple measured and went from there. Any variance would be what I would normally get if I was loading to that target OAL.
Charges were thrown with a Lee Pro disk, loaded as thrown.
My numbers reflect what I can expect with my normal loading procedures/Conditions.
To be super accurate I would have needed to use once fired same or new brass, weighed every charge, measured all the bullets and weeded out any that were off by much, etc.
So my results reflect what I can expect. A larger sample would have been better as well, say 20+ rounds, but I really didn't want to shot that many of each thru the Chrono.
I set a target OAl loaded a couple measured and went from there. Any variance would be what I would normally get if I was loading to that target OAL.
Charges were thrown with a Lee Pro disk, loaded as thrown.
My numbers reflect what I can expect with my normal loading procedures/Conditions.
To be super accurate I would have needed to use once fired same or new brass, weighed every charge, measured all the bullets and weeded out any that were off by much, etc.
So my results reflect what I can expect. A larger sample would have been better as well, say 20+ rounds, but I really didn't want to shot that many of each thru the Chrono.
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Dudedog
Contributing Member
Love that when thinking about the interest on saving/checking accounts, hmmm lets see .2%.... =.002: eek:
Yes
My tested range for some was 1.08 to 1.14 so 1.08+.06 = 1.14 .06 range, your range was .006.
1.10 + or - .01 is 1.09 to 1.11, .02 total spread
So the .02 steps will sort of show you what + or - .01 works out to.
Yes
My tested range for some was 1.08 to 1.14 so 1.08+.06 = 1.14 .06 range, your range was .006.
1.10 + or - .01 is 1.09 to 1.11, .02 total spread
So the .02 steps will sort of show you what + or - .01 works out to.
so -.004 to +.002, .006 I would say your more than good to go.
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