Having complete confidense in your reloads

[Yarddog]

HE (45__Auto) Does'nt Get it,, And He Reload :banghead: Sorry I'm not buying it ; )
Y/D

 

[45_auto]

Sorry you don't understand it, it appears that spelling, grammar and mathematics may not be your strong suits.

But that's the great thing about the First Amendment and free speech, anyone can say whatever they like and it's up to you to decide who you want to believe. Feel free to ignore any facts that do not fit your views and prejudices, it seems that the Democrats do it all the time on the Second Amendment!

 

[Kleanbore]

Let's stop the personal attacks now.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by gamestalker: I've read posts now and then about some that simply don't trust a reload to be reliable enough for self defense carry. These particular posts commonly express a strong impression that reloads just aren't reliable, and shouldn't be considered for a self defense application....

As for me, I will not trust my life to factory ammunition, over those loads I personally build.

I do not recall seeing anyone say that handloads are not reliable. I have read posts that contend that quality factory loads are sufficiently reliable for self defense, and I agree with that.

I do recommend carefully inspecting factory loads before carrying them. It might be advisable to use a scale.

The reason that many people, including in particular those who are knowledgeable of both the subject of use of force laws and the rules for admissibility of forensic scientific trace evidence, generally recommend against the carrying of hand loads for personal defense has nothing to do with reliability. Rather, it has to do primarily with the possibility that a defender may be denied the use of evidence that could prove pivotal in a defense of justification case. The likelihood of the need for such evidence is probably less than remote, but should it be needed, the consequences of not having it could be devastating. Avoiding the risk is a simple matter indeed. The subject has been discussed here at length.

See this.

 

[MichigammeDave]

I, too, have read a lot of posters saying they don't trust reloads in their guns. But most of them were talking about other people's reloads, not their own. I have not bought factory ammunition in nearly twenty years, except for 7.62x54R, 7.62x39 and 22LR. And I'm loading for the Russian calibers now. I've never regretted it, nor do I have any qualms about my own loads. I don't know you - you may be the best loader to come down the pike, but I ain't betting my life on it! But I will - and do - bet my life, and those of my family, on my loads all the time.

 

[WinchesterAA]

Whoa.. You totally don't understand the concept of "Quality vs Quantity"

Generally, as quantity increases, quality decreases.

So, if I produce one round per year, my one round should be 1,500,000,000 times more awesome than a factory round. It's simple math, man! (ignoring diminishing returns, of course.)

 

[gab909]

If anything ever did happen, the person would be dispatched with factory ammo. Not because I dont trust my reloads, but because of the lawyers nowadays that would spin it to where I loaded it specifically to kill.

 

[PJSprog]

I've been handloading and reloading for a little over 20 years now. Like many here, I've never had a failure to fire in any of my loads. Also like most, I attribute that to an appropriate attention to detail. Still using the same single stage loader, with no plans to change that in the near future.

Do I trust my own loads? Absolutely! Every centerfire handgun, rifle, and shotgun I own shoots my loads, even the SDs. I only buy factory rimfire ammo these days, and wish I didn't have to do that either.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

45 auto,
After reading all your posts it seems like you are looking for reasons to doubt reloaded ammo. I might be wrong but that's the way it looks to me. Of course you have a right to that opinion but we who load high quality ammo for many many tears have the right to disagree. I load and shoot somewhere around 10,000 handgun rounds/year and who know how many rifle rounds for more years that I would like to remember and I have never had a failure with my ammo.

Of course a bad primer is always possible but I have not come across one yet.

 

[gamestalker]

Kleanbore, I thank you for clarifying that some may have stated that reloads are sufficiently reliable, I think that is probably more accurate than my assessment.

But the real root of the topic here is, or needs to be, the general reliability and safety of our own reloads, and having confidence that they will always go bang, and not KB. I wanted to relate how important it is to make sure it is being performed correctly for the safety of all concerned, be it a self defense situation, or other wise. And with so many new comers engaging in this wonderful hobby, the rate of failure is rising quickly. I would hate to see a post about a KIA.

GS

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Yep, the reason that EVERY major firearm manufacturer recommends using ONLY handloaded ammo and NOT factory ammo in their firearms is because of the vastly higher quality and fewer problems caused by the handloaded ammo!

That could be easily answered by taking a poll on how many people on here would prefer to shoot other people's handloads or factory ammo.

Almost every week I have someone at the range offer me some of their handloads. I've never taken them up on the offer.

I have had handloads given to me by other people. They've all been pulled down.

I believe there was a poll on here a while back about whether posters would shoot other people's handloads. Maybe I'll try to find it if I get bored enough.

Ok, found the thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=628887&highlight=handload+poll

Looks like about 45% would shoot the reloads, 55% would not.

What do you think the percentage would be if it was 100 rounds of factory ammo instead of 100 rounds of reloads?

Overall, why do you think reloads have such a bad reputation for quality, even among reloaders?

Could it be because they realize how easily it is to make a mistake?

You're tongue-in-cheek statement is noted, but the reason firearms manufacturers have that warning about factory vs handloaded ammo is liability, not because a given reloader can't produce quality reloads.

If you are good at what you do, then there is no reason to question your own quality of workmanship. For example, I built the carbide cannon you can see in the video link below. There are a lot of people out there who could build a carbide cannon. Given a thousand random people with varied skills and experience, however, and I seriously doubt you'll find very many who would demonstrate the same quality of craftmanship that I did on that project.



If YOU are demostrably capable of consistently providing high quality reloads, then IMO you should be able to trust them under any circumstances. If you lack the confidence or the skills, however, then don't.


The subject of liability for another person's use of your product, however, is another matter to be seriously considered, whether your product is hand made or mass produced like in a factory.

 

[BullfrogKen]

45 auto -

Whatever.


You can buy your mass-produced McDonald's-made ammo assembled with the least expensive, most cost-competitive components and tell yourself it tastes great if you want.

I've seen the crap the manufacturers put out. I make it better myself. I give attention to detail. I'm not making ammo hungover Monday morning after my team lost the game Sunday. I'm not looking to punch a timeclock to get home in time to take the kids to soccer, letting my mind wander until then.

I'm focused on the task at hand. I don't make the crap I've seen when a box of factory rounds are opened. I've seen factory loads with primers in backwards. I've seen ones with no powder at all, and with the flash hole not punched. I've seen squibs, and overcharges. I've seen case necks crumpled to hell with only half the neck still holding onto the bullet.

And I've seen the downrange performance of that crap.


No one I know who does well in High Power shoots factory ammo. We all load it.

 

[higgite]

I hope y'all will forgive me for trusting my life to Hornady , but I've only been making ammo for about 2 years. Hornady has me by a few years. I carried factory ammo before I started reloading and I see no reason to trust it any less now than I did then. I also don't have the means nor the inclination to do ballistic testing of my own reloads, so I have no idea how far my typical reloads would penetrate a block of gelatin nor how well they would expand after passing through 3 or 4 layers of denim. No, I don't trust Hornady SD ammo to go bang any more reliably than my own, but, yes, I do have more confidence in it stopping a BG in a crunch. If that ever changes as I gain experience, then I'll rethink it. ymmv

 

[1SOW]

I load my pistol ammo to run smoothly and accurately in my pistols tailored to my uses. I trust them more I trust premium factory loads. Factory loads are similar to using published load data. It/they may not run correctly in your semi-auto pistol.
For SD:

How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are.

.
And why exactly would I want to do that? I load SD ammo that fit my pistols and propel premium SD bullets at the published speeds that meet or exceed all standards of performance criteria at 1/3 the cost or less. This allows me to actually practice with my SD ammo. How many $1+ per SD cartridges do you practice with per month? This alone gives me more confidence in my ammunition.

Would I use commercial Gold Dot or other premium SD ammo. Yes I would, but would suffer a loss. I benefit from reloading my own. I know mine are loaded to high standards for each and every cartridge. I know the exact bullet speeds out of my pistols' barrels. I can afford to practice more with my reloads.

I have had one competition load with a FED SPP fail to ignite. I pulled it and the primer compound was a dirty brown color instead of the lime green of a good primer. This same primer could have been in a Federal premium cartridge and would have failed to fire.. I have shot 1K+ of my reloads per month for years.

Confidence is very important. If you don't have confidence with your reloads, don't use them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I hope y'all will forgive me for trusting my life to Hornady , but I've only been making ammo for about 2 years. Hornady has me by a few years. I carried factory ammo before I started reloading and I see no reason to trust it any less now than I did then. I also don't have the means nor the inclination to do ballistic testing of my own reloads, so I have no idea how far my typical reloads would penetrate a block of gelatin nor how well they would expand after passing through 3 or 4 layers of denim. No, I don't trust Hornady SD ammo to go bang any more reliably than my own, but, yes, I do have more confidence in it stopping a BG in a crunch. If that ever changes as I gain experience, then I'll rethink it. ymmv

higgite,
I will agree with you to a point. If you are loading bullets of an unknown source or have been untested, sure, since you can't test their performance go with factory ammo. BUT, most bullets these days are available as components for reloading. I like Speer 135gr Short Barrel GDHP ammo and Speer sells those bullets as components. If I load that bullet to the same velocities as the factory ammo there is no reason in the world my ammo will not perform exactly as the factory loaded ammo does.

I load that round to the same exact velocities Speer does using close to the same powder they use so my ammo is just as good as theirs. A charge of 6.8gr AA#5 under the 135gr GDHP SB bullet makes a very good replica load. (BTW, 6.8gr AA#5 isn't even the max charge allowed according to Speer) I also did some work replication their 135gr .357 Magnum SB ammo using Power Pistol. Again I was able to equal the velocities and did so without going to the max charge recommended by Speer.

I'm not telling you what you should do, I'm only pointing out testing is not always needed if you use the same bullets they already tested and send the rounds over the Chrono to be sure equal velocities...

 

[45_auto]

I've seen factory loads with primers in backwards. I've seen ones with no powder at all, and with the flash hole not punched. I've seen squibs, and overcharges. I've seen case necks crumpled to hell with only half the neck still holding onto the bullet.

Except for the missing flash hole, I've seen all the exact same things you describe in handloads MANY more times than I have in factory ammo. Does that prove anything?

How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are.

And why exactly would I want to do that?

Because very few people have the equipment or expertise to manufacture their own primers, powder, or brass. If you do, then more power to you, you have complete quality control over your ammo!

But if you're not making all of your own components, your reloads can be no better than the quality standards of the components you're buying. If CCI is satisfied with a failure rate of 1 in 100,000 for their primers, then if you use CCI primers your ammo is going to have the exact same failure rate. Might be in the very first round you load, might be in the very last one before you die. Might be in number 42,587. Who knows? Feel free to try to beat the statistics if you like, that's what keeps the casinos in Las Vegas in business!

Whoa.. You totally don't understand the concept of "Quality vs Quantity"

Actually, I do. It's pretty simple. Number of Defective Products Produced divided by Total Number of Products Produced is how it's usually measured. Do you have another way of measuring it?

For example, if Remington ships 1,500,000,000 total rounds per year and 1,000 of them are bad, then 1,000/1,500,000,00 of their rounds are defective. In other words, .0000007% are bad, 99.9999993% are good.

If you produce 10,000 rounds per year for 50 years for a total of 500,000 over your lifetime, and you produce one bad round in your lifetime (due to a bad primer, whatever), then 1/500,000 of your rounds were bad. That means that .000002% were bad, 99.999998% were good.

Since .000002/.0000007 = 2.86, that means that your defect rate is almost 3 times higher than Remington's. Reminton's quality was 2.86 times better than yours. An easier way to understand it might be that you produced one bad bullet for every 500,000 you made. Remington produces one bad bullet for every 1,428,571 that they made.

Lots of manufacturers currently use the Six Sigma process (six sigma basically means 3.4 defects out of every million products produced). There's a simplified explanation of it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma

So, if I produce one round per year, my one round should be 1,500,000,000 times more awesome than a factory round. It's simple math, man! (ignoring diminishing returns, of course.)

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you using different components than the factory did? If your round works and any given factory round works, aren't they equally "awesome"?? If the next factory round works, does that mean that the factory rounds are twice as awesome as yours, etc? Feel free to show your math.

 

[USSR]

Back to the OP.

...the books I learned from back in the day, never stated that keeping brass trimmed to spec. was an option, but rather the proper method.

Qualifier: for rifle ammo, yes. For straight walled handgun ammo? In more than 35 years of loading ammo for revolvers and pistols, I have never trimmed a single case. Simply not necessary.

Brass I use always gets an acetone moistened Q-tip wipe down internally prior to using it. And for brass that has been lubed, I actually dip the cases in acetone, or another residue free solution to remove any remaining film, and then I tumbled to make sure it is completely free of something that could inadvertently foul the primer or powder charge. These elements of reloading, and others I've not mentioned, are easily found in the pages of every good instructional book. And if followed to the "T" will produce ammunition that is significantly higher quality that most any ammunition available off the shelf.

Acetone, really? Never heard of anyone going to all this trouble, but hey, if it floats your boat.

And another aspect that I think contributes to trust worthy reloads in my opinion, is using jacketed projectiles. Not because lead is unreliable, or sub standard. But because lead commonly requires lube to be on the projectile, which in my opinion increases a fouling risk. And even though there are a number of lead projectiles that will significantly out perform a jacketed bullet, jacketed is probably a better option for self defense, but because it doesn't introduce the risk of contamination.

Contamination? We talking about germs or what? I shoot hand cast lead bullets exclusively in all my handguns with zero "fouling" or "contamination" problems. Just MHO.

Don

 

[higgite]

higgite,
I will agree with you to a point. If you are loading bullets of an unknown source or have been untested, sure, since you can't test their performance go with factory ammo. BUT, most bullets these days are available as components for reloading. I like Speer 135gr Short Barrel GDHP ammo and Speer sells those bullets as components. If I load that bullet to the same velocities as the factory ammo there is no reason in the world my ammo will not perform exactly as the factory loaded ammo does.
.
.

ArchAngel,
What you say is true and makes perfect sense. But, our situations differ in two regards. First is I don't have a chrono to be able to match factory velocities. I'm sure I'll get one sooner or later, but not now. I load mostly for the enjoyment of seeing something I built punch a hole in a piece of paper somewhere close to where I want it to. But, also to practice shooting a little more economically. I know my loads will go bang, will cycle my semi-autos and will punch round holes in paper. I'm happy with that.
Second is, operating from memory here, so don't sue me if I'm wrong , but i think you have a ton more experience reloading than I do. Add that to the velocity matching that you have done and there is every reason in the world for you to trust your own loads over factory loads. I'm just not there, yet.
More to the OP's point, I don't mistrust my reloads' reliability to go bang, I just trust factory SD ammo to more reliably serve its purpose. You're one of the members I look forward to seeing post. Thanks for your input.

 

[USSR]

...I don't have a chrono to be able to match factory velocities. I'm sure I'll get one sooner or later, but not now.

I have a chrono, but I never run handgun ammo across it. Could care less if there's 50fps difference between factory ammo and my reloads with the same weight bullet. Simply follow good load data and when your reloads reach the same perceived power level at a certain charge weight, call it good. Just MHO.

Don

 

[Match10]

I can tell you that if I was guaranteed to have one failure in 100,000 rounds, not only would I not reload out of self-preservation.... but I would have destroyed six firearms and probably myself by now. I'm not willing to do that.

COMPLETE CONFIDENCE.

 

[45_auto]

COMPLETE CONFIDENCE.

Wow, I've never met a serious shooter who never performed a malfunction drill before! Got to admit, that's some serious confidence!

 

[Match10]

A malfunction drill is different than less than complete confidence in your handloading. I've had malfunctioning weapons, but not caused by my handloads.

You sir, are a buffoon, who just does not 'get it'. No, I do not trust your handloads. I have no doubt regarding my abilities.

 

[GLOOB]

For example, if Remington ships 1,500,000,000 total rounds per year and 1,000 of them are bad, then 1,000/1,500,000,00 of their rounds are defective. In other words, .0000007% are bad, 99.9999993% are good.

Where'd you pull this number? I suspect it's way too low. If you include their UMC line, I would increase this estimate by a factor of ten!

And the thing about factory ammo screwing up, is that a lot of those errors are completely avoidable by a handloader. We're talking bad OAL, missized/shaped brass, defective bullets. Or even damage during shipping.

And just cuz a reloader made x% bad ammo through his own error in his lifetime doesn't mean his current ammo isn't reliable. I made a primered dummy as my first ever cartridge. And then I lost it in the rest of the batch. Ooops. My lifetime error rate is always going to be higher than fictional Remington's! Well, I stopped making primered dummies, so this doesn't bother me. Why, after a hundred years of making ammo, are companies still occasionally shipping ammo that is so messed up it won't even fit in a chamber?

As for bad components.. well there's another thing. Most primers are eventually sold to end consumers in purchases of over 1k. And powder over 1 lb. So if a reloader has a bad lot, they'll find out soon enough. Most factory ammo reaches end consumers in puchases of <200 rds at a time. If a consumer has a bad batch of factory ammo, they're more likely to not notice until after it would have mattered!

 

[wackemanstackem]

45 auto you dont know what the failure rates are of the big boys your just throwing numbers against the wall and hope they stick.You have no access to that info ,trust me they dont give it out.I am a pretty educated man and I will bet my reloads that those numbers are much higher than you think .(like I said think).

 

[Walkalong]

I think we have beaten this poor horse enough.