I'm new to reloading, been doing a ton of reading and research. I decided to work up my first batch. I have Berrys 124g HBFP-TP and Titegroup powder , recipe calls for 3.6g starting charge with a min oal of 1.150 and max 1.160. So I made a dummy round at 1.155 which matches some factory 115g FMJ RN I have and tried to plunk in my cz sp01 barrel with no luck. So I'm thinking it must be because the bullet profile is different. I slowly worked my dummy untill it would plunk in my barrel and took a measurement of 1.050 which seems to be waaay to deep for that recipe. I've looked around and found other people with similar questions because of the limited data on these hollow base flat point bullets but nothing exactly fitting my situation. Do I scale back the charge to keep the pressures down or do I get new bullets ?
Having issues with 124g HBFP-TP
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DocRock
member
Try a second dummy round at your desired 1.155 COAL but back off the expander to just before it starts shaving plate and see what happens. Also try one long, out to 1.160 or even a bit more if it will sit and feed from magazine. You definitely don't want to go short with a truncated cone profile as they are less likely to feed well.
Try the above, and share some pics of the three dummy rounds and plunking.
BTW, you're doing it right. Having some issues and checking for advice is normal and smart. Congratulations on taking up reloading.
Try the above, and share some pics of the three dummy rounds and plunking.
BTW, you're doing it right. Having some issues and checking for advice is normal and smart. Congratulations on taking up reloading.
That dummy was without expanding, the berrys have a nice round base and sit well without that step.
DocRock
member
Ok. So, let's try it with a bit of expanding and try at 1.155 and 1.160. We definitely want to avoid short. Any bullet deformation visible on the dummy round? Maybe forcing it into th unexpanded case mouth has caused premature obturation?
fxvr5
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CZs have notoriously short throats and truncated cone bullets like the Berry's will likely have to be seated very deep to fit the chamber, just as you have discovered. Here's a figure showing the maximum OALs some bullets had to be seated to in order to fit a CZ SP-01 barrel:
You'll probably need to reduce your powder charge, even though you're loading the 'starting' weight because seating the bullet much deeper will increase pressure quite a bit.
CZs can choke on short OAL rounds from feeding failures. Mine did. You can try the Berry's but you'd be better off with different bullets that have a longer nose.
You'll probably need to reduce your powder charge, even though you're loading the 'starting' weight because seating the bullet much deeper will increase pressure quite a bit.
CZs can choke on short OAL rounds from feeding failures. Mine did. You can try the Berry's but you'd be better off with different bullets that have a longer nose.
lordpaxman
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Welcome to THR and the new addiction. Seems there are a lot of new reloaders starting in here so that’s a really good thing!
You’ve gotten a lot of good advice already, I’ll add my .02. Kudos on figuring out the plunk test first without loading up hundreds of rounds and then figuring out things won’t work. Always check your max COL with a bullet first. As you noted the bullet profile in your gun has a very short max COL which is longer than the online min COL. I’m not sure where you got your data from but there’s usually no max COL listed for a load, that’s dictated by the “cartridge feeding device/mag” or the chamber and bore/rifling/leade.
@forrest r had some nifty charts on pressure and COL but it’s not for your bullet and powder combination. You have a hollow base bullet and a thick plate jacket and you’re loading with one of the faster less forgiving powders, Titegroup.
For a new reloader I’d recommend getting a bullet that can be used with published load data and Titegroup. If those are the only bullets available, do you have a slower powder you can start with?
I'd be very careful going with an OAL and powder date that much shorter than published without lowering the powder charge...especially with Titegroup. Titegroup has a very small operating window and isn't optimal as a powder when first starting out. 231 and BE-86 are known as being much more forgiving.
There is a lot of 124gr data using a FN profile available. You shouldn't have to try to extrapolate it when working up a load
Trying to work out OAL using a 124gr FN bullet and 115gr RN bullet also isn't a very good idea...maybe if you have both bullets on hand and can measure both to compare actual lengths.
There is a lot of 124gr data using a FN profile available. You shouldn't have to try to extrapolate it when working up a load
I only used that 1.155 115g as reference because it fell in the spec from the data I found for the 124g FP and it fits my sp01. I have the Lynn 49th but it only has cast bullets for 124g , lee data that comes with the dies has min oal st 1.150 and Hodgdon published online a min 1.150 max 1.160 I am considering getting a different powder for the 124g and different bullets for the titegroup
rfwobbly
Member
You've found the neighborhood of the Max OAL for that bullet when used in a CZ barrel. But as you suspect that's not the whole story on the bullet or the load.
► With an OAL so short, you'll want to find the exact maximum the barrel will allow, then back off possibly 0.015" more. You need to build in some allowance for variations in the OAL on your production. New reloaders always have wild variations in OAL. So you don't want to guess at OAL and then have one of your longer variations allow the pistol to fire out of battery (OOB).
► 1) Yes, since the OAL given in the Load Manual data looks to be far longer than what will actually be used for production, you will definitely need to reduce the load. 2) 9x19 Luger is a high pressure cartridge and you don't need to reduce very much to get the chamber pressure to soar off the charts. 3) TiteGroup is a very hot powder with a very narrow allowable load range. You're a novice and it's your first "at bat" in the majors, and it looks like you have 3 strikes before you even step into the batter's box. Through no fault of your own, the component list seems to create a "perfect storm" in your pistol.
Please make some changes before you start. As a novice you really want to load something more "conventional" your first time out. You will not need to throw anything away. All those components are very good and will all be consumed in the coming weeks or months.... but in the name of safety, let's modify this first load so that you can use a recipe right out of the manual. That way you can see the manual working for you AND build your first rounds in complete safety that will be safe to shoot.
I know components are super tight right now, but what I'd like you to research is the sister bullet: Berry 124gr HBRN-TP These will load in a CZ at a much more conventional OAL and thus allow you to safely use the powder you have.
If you can't find these I'd rather send you some rather than have you construct ammo using what you've got. Just contact me here or on the Original CZ Forum via PM.
Be safe.
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fxvr5
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You could use Hodgdon's data for the Hornady 125 gr HAP. Their data uses a 1.069" OAL. Their Titegroup start data is 2.8 gr (816 fps) and max is 3.2 gr (930 fps). Their speeds are pretty slow, so reliable operation might be a problem. Or not.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
The 125 HAP is .572" long, and the Berry's 124 FP bullet is .520" long. (The HB length would be a 'false' length due to the hollow base.) Your Berry's bullet at 1.050" OAL would be equal to the HAP at 1.102" OAL, so you could increase the charge weight about 0.2 gr.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
The 125 HAP is .572" long, and the Berry's 124 FP bullet is .520" long. (The HB length would be a 'false' length due to the hollow base.) Your Berry's bullet at 1.050" OAL would be equal to the HAP at 1.102" OAL, so you could increase the charge weight about 0.2 gr.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Lots of people like Titegroup, but not a good choice for a new reloader IMO.
As @9mmepiphany mentioned it might be a good idea to set the Titegroup aside for a bit and start with something a bit more forgiving.
Something with a little slower burn rate like BE86/WSF/Silhouette would be a better choice. HP38/W231 (same powder different label) would alos be a better choice.
kmw1954
Member
Mikeayyy, I load and shoot a lot of that bullet in both a Taurus PT92C, XD Mod2, HK VP9 and a S&W M&P. and I love it. Just not with that powder.
As fxvr5 and rfwobbly have already suggested and you can find quite well documented in the forums,especially in the CZ form that they along with the Tanfoglio Witness they have very tight chambers and very little leade. Which requires them to be loaded much shorter than most.
Now if you will shuffle yourself over to http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/ you will find many powders with data for the Berry's 124gr HBFPTP bullet. Then if you look there you will see they state an OAL with that bullet @1.060".. So you are not that far off.
Yet if you go over to Hodgdon website you will find that same bullet with data for Hodgdon HP-38/W231 and they list a OAL 1.150".. Now you say that is quite a difference between the 2 sites and yes it is. Those listed lengths are just what they used to establish their data. They are not a max of a minimum.
As suggested I would halt for a moment and think about moving to a more forgiving powder to get started with. And just to keep things simpler I would suggest a Western Powder as their load length is closer to where you are at with this bullet. Then suggest either AA#2, AA#5, Silhouette or True Blue.. Save that Titegroup for another loading with a different bullet.
As fxvr5 and rfwobbly have already suggested and you can find quite well documented in the forums,especially in the CZ form that they along with the Tanfoglio Witness they have very tight chambers and very little leade. Which requires them to be loaded much shorter than most.
Now if you will shuffle yourself over to http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/ you will find many powders with data for the Berry's 124gr HBFPTP bullet. Then if you look there you will see they state an OAL with that bullet @1.060".. So you are not that far off.
Yet if you go over to Hodgdon website you will find that same bullet with data for Hodgdon HP-38/W231 and they list a OAL 1.150".. Now you say that is quite a difference between the 2 sites and yes it is. Those listed lengths are just what they used to establish their data. They are not a max of a minimum.
As suggested I would halt for a moment and think about moving to a more forgiving powder to get started with. And just to keep things simpler I would suggest a Western Powder as their load length is closer to where you are at with this bullet. Then suggest either AA#2, AA#5, Silhouette or True Blue.. Save that Titegroup for another loading with a different bullet.
I want to start off saying thank you for all the good advice, I do plan to put these on the back shelf for now and go out and grab a more forgiving powder and some rn bullets as you suggested that will work with cz and titegroup. Safety and keeping my fingers is my number 1 priority here. Those components are just what I happen to recieve from the person I bought the loading set up from.
Just came to add my voice to the chorus singing the "forget that bullet/powder/gun combo." As others have noted, any gun with a short throat - and CZ's generally fall into this category - will force a sharp-shouldered bullet (truncated cone profile) down into the case. And cramming Titegroup into a really small space is scary. Titegroup is good for experience reloaders who can manage all the variables and keep it in its operating window and who care more about cost than some other criteria. It's cheapness on a per-round basis is the only reason, IMO, that it's more popular than several other fairly-fast powders.
tightgroup tiger
Member
I have to disagree with you on that.
We (me and my shooting friends) have tested Titegroup powder at 25yds with a Ruger PC-9 with 4.1gr of powder with plated 124gr bullets, and got one hole the size of a quarter out of 30 shots.
that's with a scoped rifle.
I think that's why those of us that use it a lot in 9mm are still using it.
I doesn't cost any less than Bullseye or any of the other cheap fast burning powders out there. The recipes are also similar for the same caliber bullets so they are mostly the same cost to load as far as powder goes.
Prowler53
Member
I started out with Titegroup and liked it very much but I was loading single stage and weighing every charge. Since I'm loading my 9's with a progressive now I switched to CFE Pistol. I just don't trust running it on my progressive because of that tight window. Other than that I think it's a very good Powder for 9mm.
Chronograph results for both Titegroup and CFE Pistol shot from 3" springfield xd mod 2 9mm. Results are pretty darn close.
Berry's 124 RN Plated
OAL 1.135
Blazer Brass
CCI 500 Primers
Titegroup 3.9 gr
Min 1076 fps
Max 1112 fps
Avg 1100 fps
StdDev: 10.97
10 Shot group at 10 Yards 2.10"
Berry's 124 RN Plated
OAL 1.135
Blazer Brass
CCI 500 Primers
CFE Pistol 5.2 gr.
Min 1074 fps
Max 1101 fps
Avg 1085.44
StdDev: 7.94
10 Shot group at 10 Yards 2.35"
Prowler53
Member
I tried Berry's 124 HBFP-TP Here's what I have for that using the same 5.2 gr. CFE Pistol
Berry's 124 HBFP-TP
OAL 1.050
Assorted Brass
CCI 500 Primers
CFE Pistol 5.2 gr
Min 1068 fps
Max 1117 fps
Avg 1098.11 fps
StdDev: 17.47
I didn't check group size but I do remember It was not very good compared to the RN's. I may give the HBRN's a try in the future.
Berry's 124 HBFP-TP
OAL 1.050
Assorted Brass
CCI 500 Primers
CFE Pistol 5.2 gr
Min 1068 fps
Max 1117 fps
Avg 1098.11 fps
StdDev: 17.47
I didn't check group size but I do remember It was not very good compared to the RN's. I may give the HBRN's a try in the future.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Don't know if it has been mentioned but one thing to watch out for is bullet setback.
While it is never good, with some more forgiving powders it might not cause a problem (or it might)
Any of the faster powders (burn speed wise) for 9mm are more sensitive to setback than a slower powder would be.
Lots of ways to check, but I would load up one dummy round (no powder or primer) then measure it.
Chamber it 4 or 5 times from the mag and see if you have any setback.
A tiny amount might be expected any thing else and you need to find out why.
As a note more crimp does not help and can make matters worse if you squeeze the bullet and the brass and the brass "springs" back more than the bullet.
As a quickie check when I am loading I have a small wood block on my bench and I will just give a random round a couple good whacks nose down on it.
(solid hit but not like I am trying to drive it thru the board)
While it is never good, with some more forgiving powders it might not cause a problem (or it might)
Any of the faster powders (burn speed wise) for 9mm are more sensitive to setback than a slower powder would be.
Lots of ways to check, but I would load up one dummy round (no powder or primer) then measure it.
Chamber it 4 or 5 times from the mag and see if you have any setback.
A tiny amount might be expected any thing else and you need to find out why.
As a note more crimp does not help and can make matters worse if you squeeze the bullet and the brass and the brass "springs" back more than the bullet.
As a quickie check when I am loading I have a small wood block on my bench and I will just give a random round a couple good whacks nose down on it.
(solid hit but not like I am trying to drive it thru the board)
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