HD Ammo in a Judge?

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JoeMal

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My FIL recently bought a Taurus Judge and I was looking into some home/self defense ammo for him. I saw some Remington Ultimate Home Defense 410 shotshells, loaded with 00 Buckshot. However, I noticed on the box it says that these shouldn't be fired from a twisted barrel. The Judge definitely has a twisted barrel....

So my noob question; what are the reasons for this? Will this load damage the gun?
 
You're going to get mostly answers that say a Judge is a poor HD weapon, and they'll be mostly right. It's a great snake gun with almost any shotshell in it, up to about eight feet.

If you want to try to also use one for personal defense against larger critters, keep some .45 jacketed hollowpoints around for it too.

Les
 
Yes FIL stands for father in law

And I don't understand why people think it's a bad home defense gun? What I've seen is that people claim the shot spreads quite a bit; isn't that what a shotshell is supposed to do? Care to elaborate? What about my original question?
 
There is nothing wrong with a Judge as an HD weapon. With a decent 45 colt load, it's actually quite effective. The question is wether there are any 410 shotshells that make for adequate penetration when fired out of a handgun. It doesn't matter how many 00 buckshot pellets there are if the don't have enough penetration to hit something lethal.

I think the answer in my testing is that the newer "handgun" self defense loads Probably have enough velocity (about 750 fps out of a 3" barrel) to be lethal in most situations, although they don't have the proven track record of a 200+grain 45 slug at 850 fps.
 
You're going to get mostly answers that say a Judge is a poor HD weapon, and they'll be mostly right. It's a great snake gun with almost any shotshell in it, up to about eight feet.
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Actually, I'm betting that, as usual, you will likely get more opinions from folks that repeat what they have heard about The Judge instead of educated and useful opinions from real owners/shooters.

In my case, I have a couple of years of experience with shooting lots of .410 loads as well as .45 Colt. My favorite HD/VD load is home rolled 3" shells (my Judge is the 3" Mag model) with plated lead BB shot, which at normal HD/VD range of maybe 2-8 yards will totally shred a 12-15 circle, but yet not put those across the parking lot or down the hall at home in lethal jeopardy as an unintended target. What's not to like about being able to accomplish both a lethal defense and provide some safety to others ?
But, I have to agree with the folks that claim, at long range, the spread may become unacceptable. Imagine that, with shotshells out of a 3" barrel........

But to agree with my friend wrs40, The Judge with #6 shot results in some serious death to copperheads or rattlers, if that is how you choose to deal with snakes.

If unintended targets are not a concern, check out the offerings at Paraklese Technologies, as their outside the box loadings for The Judge are pretty bad Mojo. And for sure the .45 Colt is to be respected as well.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Pyzon, a 3" barrel Judge is going to have a shotshell pattern at 8 yards of something approaching a five foot diameter. Given the limited number of .410 pellets of any size that will be in that pattern, the effectiveness against most anything at that distance is somewhere between marginal and zero. Do you disagree?

(I used to own two 3" Judges. Now I own one...)

Les
 
I think the answer in my testing is that the newer "handgun" self defense loads Probably have enough velocity (about 750 fps out of a 3" barrel) to be lethal in most situations, although they don't have the proven track record of a 200+grain 45 slug at 850 fps.
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The box says 1300 FPS. So does the shortened barrel limit the actual velocity?

which at normal HD/VD range of maybe 2-8 yards will totally shred a 12-15 circle
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Don't most home occurrences happen in this range, anyway?

But, I have to agree with the folks that claim, at long range, the spread may become unacceptable
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Who has 30 yard long hallways? My FIL certainly doesn't.

Once again, my original question, is it OK to shoot these rounds out of the Judge?
 
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Actually, I'm betting that, as usual, you will likely get more opinions from folks that repeat what they have heard about The Judge instead of educated and useful opinions from real owners/shooters.
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Finally, common sense.
The box says 1300 FPS. So does the shortened barrel limit the actual velocity?
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Yes, a lot. As soon as the projectile leaves the barrel, the force of the expanding gas is done. That's not to say it won't be effective, painful, and lethal.
3" barrel Judge is going to have a shotshell pattern at 8 yards of something approaching a five foot diameter.
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What? I might challenge that.

Because of the popularity of the Judge, the ammo manufacturers are making more H/D loads. I picked up three different types for my Bond, Including the Winchester PDX.
 
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3" barrel Judge is going to have a shotshell pattern at 8 yards of something approaching a five foot diameter.
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What? I might challenge that.
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At 24 feet, close to 5 foot diameter shotshell pattern out of a 3" bbl Judge. Yes, I own one... That's about what you'll get.

Les
 
Doesn't Federal make a 410 load specifically for the judge?
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Yes. In #4 (I own it) and in 000 Buck. Goes bang just fine. Doesn't tighten the pattern though.

Les
 
I know the pattern is pretty wide but doesn't the federal load pack a lot more wallop than 410 loads made for a shotgun?
 
The box of truth guys didn't try the newer handgun 410 rounds, nor did they even find a regular 2 1/2" shell; they cut down a 3" shell to 2 1/2".

I don't take it very seriously.
 
The Box O' Truth website seemed unimpressed with the .410 round from The Judge.
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Maybe they should be called "Box of opinion". I like looking at the web site, but there is about as much science as me shooting milk jugs.

Paragraph 2: They tell you they are prejudiced against the weapon. (so much for science.)

Paragraph 3: They admit they never tried to find ammo online.

Scroll down to the test: Birdshot into a pizza box at 30'. Looks like all the pellets made it into the paper.......far from 5' spread.

Buckshot (homemade as someone pointed out) and they determine how much penetration in ballistic gel by shooting into water bottles???
I guess a milk jug = 3" of penetration, but there is no way of knowing if the lead just got in and fell in the water or made it to the far side and didn't get out. That's a big difference, but not taken into account.

If you're going to call yourself "Box of Truth", and publish results on the web, at least find real ammo online. What, one day they just decided to jump up and go shoot? This can't wait a week until the ammo comes in? At one point they claimed they scoured the COUNTY, but I'll bet they hoped you'd read COUNTRY.

Give me Mythbusters. At least they try to relate.

I don't own a Judge, I opted for the Bond Snakeslayer IV with the 4 1/4" barrel.
 
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I have chronoed both the Federal 000 buck handgun 410 round, and the Winchester Pdx1 410 round with 3 disks and 12 BBs. They both do about 730 fps out of a 3" barreled Judge. At a typical combat distance of about 12-15 ft, the 000 buck from the Federal makes nice groups about 5" dia.

The PDX1 round at the same distance produces a pattern so wide with the BBs I consider them useless. What is suprising is how tight the pattern is with the 3 disks - often almost the same hole. I found myself just thinking a single heavier projectile might as well be used instead of the 3 disks to get better penetration - hmmn, maybe something like a 45 colt slug?

I concluded that this best defense load with the Judge is the 45 colt, but I was impressed enough with the Federal buckshot load to think that a couple of rounds of those along with three 45 colts, might not be so bad.

So what other new production double action 45 Colt revolver that is light enough to carry is out there anyway? Not much at current. I really think that Taurus should come out with a 45 colt only, ultra-light. That would make a nice carry gun.
 
And I don't understand why people think it's a bad home defense gun?
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First, I don't think it is a bad HD gun, when loaded properly. Funning thing though is that the .410 is probably the first cartridge in history whose perceived performance actually improved by significantly reducing the barrel length of the platform firing it. Think about it, for decades the .410 has been considered a bit marginal for defense against erect bipedals. From 20"+ barrels no less. Then Taurus lops a whole bunch of barrel off said .410 and overnight it becomes the hammer of Thor (to some folks anyway).

The real problem a lot of us have with it is a lot of folks are loading the Judges up with birdshot, which unless you manage to put both of the perps eyes out, you are likely only going to make him mad (yes, I imagine it can be lethal, but the penetration power flat stinks). Heck, I don't even trust birdshot out of my 20" 12 guage to do the job.

If I had a Judge, I'd stick to a proven .45 Colt hollowpoint load and leave it at that. Though most fights might be inside 20 feet, I'd sure prefer teh ability to effectively reach out further if need be. But if buckshot is your preference, at least pattern a few different loads. Just reading this thread tells me there is a HUGE variance between them.
 
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Well... This is one shot of Federal Premium .410 Handgun 4 Shot (the "Judge Load") at 10 yards, 30 feet.

(Sorry for the raw-uploaded and therefore sideways iphone photo). The "target" is 48" x 32" 1/4" masonite-type crap-board. You can see the "foot" marks on the tape indicating the four feet tall mark. After shooting, I turned the 1/4" board around to show the larger exits for better visibility, and circled the highest and lowest exits with a Sharpie. I don't know how many pellets missed the board, but you can see full coverage over the four foot span. I didn't have a bigger sheet of something to shoot at in the back of the truck, but this is why I say a 3" bbl Judge has a near five-foot pattern at 30 feet, and why it's pretty useless at 30 feet.

I'm not a Taurus basher. I own two Taurus revolvers now, and have owned more in the past. My only real objection to Taurus is stiff hammers and stiff triggers. I actually like the Judge UltraLite 3" that I own and shot for this "test". I'm just trying to inject some unbiased reality into the debate about what they can and cannot be expected to do.

Les
 

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To me, that's not how you measure a pattern. You take one shot, measure the diameter of a circle that covers all shots, and that's the pattern size.

How do we know you didn't flinch or pull up a shot or two or move your point of aim? With the judge, there will be occasional flyers. But the majority of pellets are going to be in a circle smaller than that, at least in my Judge it is.

I shot BB and 000 loads at 7 yards. In general, each shot of the BB pellets made about a 20" pattern. A few pellets were missing so either they flew off the target (which was only 2' x 3'), or a few were so close they looked like one hole. But if 18 of 21 pellets makes a 20" group, that's what I'm going to call it. Not 48".

The Federal 000 load seemed impressive to me. Was much tighter, around 10". Some times, there'd be a wild pellet (3 nice and close, the 4th way away). I think that is what your pattern board is showing.
 
Oh, and I wish Taurus or someone else would come out with the equivalent of the Taurus 450. I have one in Titanium. Nice small 2" 45 Colt revolver. Weighs only 19oz. I use that instead of a judge if I want solid bullets and not shot.
 
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