HD: pistol or shotgun?

[benEzra]

You also have to factor in that most pistols aren't equipped with a muzzle brake that is sending the sound back towards the shooter. Depending on where the microphone is when doing the recording, that can make a difference as well.

Most AR's and shotguns aren't, either, particularly those set up for HD. The last thing you want on *any* HD gun is a blast-and-flash-multiplying muzzle brake.

My 16" AR is set up with a Smith Vortex flash suppressor, which does a very good job of directing the muzzle blast and flash forward, and subjectively it is no louder or more annoying than my 3.5" barreled 9mm. I have shot next to AR's and CETME's with brakes, though, and I would never, ever want to fire a braked gun indoors; they sounded like a .357.

I have fired an AR in a hallway with no hearing protection, I fired one round and it caused me complete temporary hearing loss, dizziness and blurred vision. Not helpful in a self defense situation. I vote 12 gauge semi auto shotgun.

Braked, bare muzzle, or good flash suppressor? What barrel length? The configuration makes a huge difference. A 14.5" AR is significantly louder than a 16", for example. My AR (16", Vortex FS) seems comparable to a pistol in terms of volume and annoyance, whereas the loudest and most annoying gun I've ever shot next to at an outdoor range was a 14.5" AR with a brake.

Going by published measurements, a 16" AR with FS (not brake) should be very close to the same peak dBA and duration as an 18" 12-gauge.

 

[DeadFlies]

If I'm indoors I want a handgun. This leaves my off hand open for other things like a light or a cellphone or supporting myself if I get knocked down or whatever.

I used to be in the shotgun camp and indeed, if I'm outdoors (I live in the country with no real neighbors) I want a shotgun. But if something goes bump, crash or smash in the middle of the night I want to check it out, a long gun, IMHO, seems just too heavy and cumbersome when dealing with the unknown. A handgun with a light seems to provide the maneuverability one would want when dealing with poltergeists in the wee hours.

12ga, .223 or 9mm is most likely irrelevant at across-the-room distances; terminal ballistics is, again IMHO, the least important factor to take into consideration.

 

[Skribs]

Cell phone I can understand, but you can mount a light on a shotgun or carbine rather easily. If you get knocked down, you can always take one hand off the long gun, I don't really see that being a reason to choose a handgun over a long gun.

But if something goes bump, crash or smash in the middle of the night I want to check it out, a long gun, IMHO, seems just too heavy and cumbersome when dealing with the unknown. A handgun with a light seems to provide the maneuverability one would want when dealing with poltergeists in the wee hours.

Just checking a noise, fine. There is a definite threat? You want to be bunkered down, and a long gun would provide the stability to make that easier.

12ga, .223 or 9mm is most likely irrelevant at across-the-room distances; terminal ballistics is, again IMHO, the least important factor to take into consideration.

There is a huge difference between the 3. The 9mm will poke a 9mm hole (well, more like a 15mm hole when you factor in expansion). The 12ga will poke several 8.4mm holes, essentially the same as a 9-shot burst, and several wound tracts with which to hit a more vital organ. The .223 is going to create a single, big hole in the target, with a few ancillary wound tracts from bullet fragments and torn muscle fragments.

 

[Kleanbore]

But if something goes bump, crash or smash in the middle of the night I want to check it out, a long gun, IMHO, seems just too heavy and cumbersome when dealing with the unknown.

No firearm can protect you against the unknown.

 

[DeadFlies]

If you get knocked down, you can always take one hand off the long gun,

Taking one hand off of the long gun renders it almost useless. This is not the case with a hand gun. I can do any number of actions with my free hand and still retain the ability to control my weapon and shoot with relative accuracy.

There is a huge difference between the 3. The 9mm will poke a 9mm hole (well, more like a 15mm hole when you factor in expansion). The 12ga will poke several 8.4mm holes, essentially the same as a 9-shot burst, and several wound tracts with which to hit a more vital organ. The .223 is going to create a single, big hole in the target, with a few ancillary wound tracts from bullet fragments and torn muscle fragments.

I didn't say there is no difference. I'm just saying that the difference is nearly irrelevant as all three (and several other calibers/gauges as well) are all suitable for HD/SD.

 

[DeadFlies]

No firearm can protect you against the unknown.

Ummm....

Care to elaborate?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by DeadFlies: Care to elaborate[(on "no firearm can protect you against the unknown")]?

It's rather basic. The resident goes forth to investigate. While he or she is doing so, he or she is vulnerable to ambush, perhaps from a crossfire. The weapon does not protect the resident from gunfire, or even from contact weapons from behind.

Should the resident see someone, he or she must identify the stranger and determine whether or not he constitutes a legitimate threat before using deadly force. The stranger, if he is a violent criminal actor, has no such obligation.

The intruder has a definite advantage unless the resident lets the threat come to him or to her.

 

[Skribs]

KB, while that's tactically true, if something is "unknown" I am going to investigate it. If something is a clear threat, 911 and bunker down.

 

[Fred Fuller]

if something is "unknown" I am going to investigate it

In that much of a hurry, hmm? Why not just wait a bit and see what if anything happens next?

 

[Skribs]

In that much of a hurry, hmm? Why not just wait a bit and see what if anything happens next?

I'm not saying I wouldn't be cautious and take my time. But I am saying that if I hear something and I don't know what it is, my first response isn't going to be 911 and training a shotgun on the bedroom door. It's going to be listen, wait, and then check to see if there's actually something there.

On the other hand, if the noises I hear clearly indicate an intrusion, or if when I'm cautiously moving forward I realize someone is there, then it's time to retreat, call 911, and bunker up and wait.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Skribs:...if I hear something and I don't know what it is, my first response ... [is] going to be listen, wait, and then check to see if there's actually something there.

What do you mean, "check"?

 

[Skribs]

What do you mean, "check"?

Depends on the situation. For example, if I come home and find a security layer in an unsececured state, there are two possibilities: last person out forgot to lock up, or there's an intruder. The former is usually the case. If I come home and find the door wide open with large strips of wood torn from it and one side of the frame popping out, very good idea to call 911 and wait outside.

In another situation, back when I lived with my parents, I came home one day to find no cars in the driveway (which would allude to both parents being out). However, someone was using the shower. Once again, two possibilities: either for some reason, one of my parents or possibly a family friend (it's happened) was using our shower, and for some reason the car is gone, or a burglar needed to get clean. I called a greeting, and turns out it was my Dad. He had just taken his car in to the shop.

(Before I called the greeting, I had planned on either an escape route or defensive option, should it be a burglar. I felt that if it were not a friendly in the bathroom, I had at least a small amount of time before they were out of the shower and into the hall).

In that later situation, it would have been highly embarrassing to have called 911, only to realize it was my Dad the whole time. I don't want to call unless I'm sure I'm going to need the police involved, so that when I do know there's a danger, I'm not on some "wolf cryer" list.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Skribs: I don't want to call unless I'm sure I'm going to need the police involved,....

I can understand someone being reluctant to call unless there is reason to believe that it is probable that there is an immediate danger. Not for me. I'll call unless I think it is probable that there is no imminent danger. Shouldn't be hard to establish in short order.

Some time ago, I elected to not call 911 after a strange truck stopped down the street and stayed for a while twice in the wee hours. I thought it was a little suspicious, but I saw no clear indication of wrong-doing. Seemed like a no-brainer to me. I was later chastised by the local police and by two officers I know from other forces.

I beieve that not calling unless one is "sure" that there is a need is far from prudent.

In any event, I'm not going to expose myself to potential attack just because I have not yet "heard noises that 'clearly indicate' an intrusion."

 

[Skribs]

I don't necessarily think either of us is wrong, KB. I think we're assessing the factors and selecting which ones are most important to us. You're opting to err on the side of safety. I'm opting to err on the side of convenience.

In the end, it sounds like the decision of whether to carry a full-size 9mm pistol for the capacity and power over the second option: a pocket .380 for convenience and comfort.

 

[Blackstone]

Sorry to go slightly off track, but why does a 5.56 have less penetrating power than a shotgun?

 

[benEzra]

Sorry to go slightly off track, but why does a 5.56 have less penetrating power than a shotgun?

With the right loads (hollowpoints or light soft points, not FMJ), it does. Basically a small, relatively fragile hollowpoint spinning at 250,000+ RPM tends to destabilize and go to pieces after hitting a few walls at Mach 3. Some loads penetrate more than others, of course, and the very lightest ones arguably don't penetrate *enough*, but if you want to limit wall penetration, there are plenty of low-penetration .223 JHPs that still offer pretty decent performance.

 

[Sgt_R]

In my home, if I need a firearm right now, it will be a handgun.

If I have time (and need) to access a long gun, the shotgun won't be my first choice. I prefer my AR.

R