HD rifle for me

[Foxtrot427]

I need an relatively inexpensive HD rifle. It would be mainly inside and need to be fairly accurate within around 100yds. Anything further isnt necessary. I dont want an AK, sks, or hipoint.. Im just not a fan of them. Id rather not turn to an AR either. Soo far I have looked at the following

Kel-Tec SU-16, folder stock makes an already compact and light rifle even more so. High-cap readily available mags.

AR pistol, if I had to leave there are lots of ARs. Very modular. Small. Maybe not rifle accuaracy but still better than some other pistol. All the AR pros in a smaller package. Probably look for a carbon 15

M1 carbine, good HD cartridge, small, light, balanced battle rifle. Obscure caliber however. Also, the reliable USGI rifles are somewhat pricey.

It looks like the Su-16C would be the best choice. Its pretty handsome, its apparently reliable, very light, very small, pretty accurate, has a host of acessories. Seems like it has everything. If there were any inexpensive bullpups out there Id look at them but so far thats just not an option. The AR pistol seems like the second best option. Any good rifles I have overlooked pitch them to me.

 

[browningguy]

I really like my Su16A, thinking about picking up a C model to go with it. They are just right for the .223, light weight, folds fairly compact. Not as accurate as a top notch AR but easily a 2-2.5MOA gun even with a cheap scope on it.

I've also got a Sub2000 in 9mm which is even lighter and folds to 16", mine has the G17 magwell and I carry it with four 33 round mags in a standard briefcase. Now the 9mm isn't even close to the .223, and I get about the same accuracy at 50 yards as the SU at 100 with open sights, but it's something to consider.

 

[kir_kenix]

whenever i see a post like this i feel overly obligated to vote for the m1 carbine, my favorite rifle for this sort of thing. a reliable one could easily be had for the price of a new su-16. ammo is more expensive tho, but either is going to do purty much the same thing. in real hd situations you are never giong to have to shoot out to 100 yds, and a shotgun seems to fit the bill pretty nicely and less expensively. i personally am not much of a fan of the ar pistols, i would rather just use a quality pistol cartridge in a conventional quality pistol, but thats just me.

 

[SnakeEater]

Here's my vote. HK51, 7.62 Nato. It all boils down to whether or not you consider $1925 inexpensive.

 

[19-3Ben]

It looks like you are only considering semi-auto rifles.
If so, cool. Far be it from me to put them down.
But have you thought of a .357 mag levergun, like the Marlin 1984c?
They are shorter than an 18" shotgun, hold 9 rounds in the tube, are more vesatile than any of the semi-autos, and would certainly be powerful enough to do the trick at anything from point blank range out to 100 yards.

 

[Squidward]

Consider the following:
Mini 14 in .223
30-30 lever gun
.357 lever gun

 

[swingset]

I wouldn't consider the AR pistol to be anything more than a range toy. With that short barrel, you're losing fragmentation because of the loss in velocity. It's about as powerful as a .22 magnum (not very).

Go 11.5" at the VERY LEAST. A 16" full length AR is much more handy and accurate than a goofy pistol, IMHO and not that much bigger.

 

[kir_kenix]

i would think they would outperform a .22 mag just because of bullet design. velocity is still going to be higher (at least i would think) and alot of .22 mag rounds are right around 40 gr vs 55 gr and up for .223. but you are right tho, its a range toy not a self defense weapon. you would be better served w/ a full-sized vs a pistol in hd.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Here's my vote. HK51, 7.62 Nato. It all boils down to whether or not you consider $1925 inexpensive

And in the case of the one pictured, that pesky $200 SBR tax stamp.

To the original post:

Sounds like the SU-16 might be just the ticket for your purpose. Or a mini-14, one of my personal favorites <ducking blows from mini-haters>

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I think the best HD rifle/carbine is what I use (duh!), but here's what I use and the rationale behind it. Just my opinion.


Saiga in 7.62x39mm.


Price: Can be found for $235. That makes it affordable, and not a terrible loss if stolen or confiscated by the police after a defensive use.

Speed:

a] Time to deployment is fast. There are no gadgets, no optics, no switches, no nonsense. Just a nice, long, easy to grab charging handle that has a long pull.

b] Semi-automatic. This is far above and beyond superior to any other action/mode with the exception of select-fire. Under stress, it is difficult to work a lever or pump a shotgun.


Reliability: 7.62x39mm cartridge is tapered making it an easy feeding round. It is also easy extracting. More importantly, the Saiga is a true AK-actioned carbine. This is the most reliable action available. The Saiga is a modern AK action, so the parts are well machined and clean and well finished. This is a fine carbine. Reliability is #1 above and beyond all other factors. Going BANG is king for HD.


Effectiveness: Semi-automatic fire coupled with the 7.62x39mm's power is superior to just about anything you can use for HD with the exception of a .308 or a 12ga, but you don't have the disadvantage those do in recoil. .30 carbine, .223, and most others do not match this power. Capacity is 10rds by default, but you can modify an AK mag to fit very easily with no detriment to reliability.


Penetration: I view penetration power as a benefit, not a liability. The very hard-jacketed Russian bullets, weighing 123gr and being FMJ is far better than the .223 at defeating barriers and THEN still delivering a lethal or incapacitating blow. Barriers such as interior walls, doors and furniture or cabinets. I can link you to two different defensive situations where the victim shot through a door to stop the attacker.


Ergonomics: Pretty decent. It has a traditional rifle stock, not a pistol grip - so it handles a lot more like a shotgun. It is a great point and shoot carbine for HD ranges. I can lift the rifle and do a quick snap shot and hit head shots at 25 yards consistently. That's much further than any HD range unless you have a large home. Rapid aimed fire is easily COM hits to 100 yards. It is a 16" carbine, so it won't be any longer than most other HD carbine choices. It's not as light as an M1 Carbine, but it's not heavy enough to be a concern. Weight in my opinion is a total non-issue when it comes to HD since engagement time will not be long. IE, you're not going to hump the rifle on a 10 mile march.


Overall, it is an affordable, powerful, fast, reliable, effective, good handling, easy to use HD choice. There's everything to like about it, nothing not to like. I overlooked it for years until I did a truly down to Earth serious appraisal of what MY HD *needs* are and what constitutes good defensive gear, rather what my *wants* are. Once I threw away all the stupid tactical-ninja ideas that filled my head from reading forums and instead used my own ideas formed from reading real defensive situations, that's the conclusion I've come to. I want more speed than levers or pumps but without sacrificing reliability. I also don't want to sacrifice much power, but do not want excessive recoil to slow me down. Most of the defensive situations I've read about were under 5 shots. That's not to say I don't need a high-capacity magazine, I'm a HUGE advocate of that, but it shouldn't be the single most important determining factor. If you consider a lever or a pump, they are already behind a Saiga in round count.



I believe the Saiga is about 10x more robust, tougher and higher quality than a Kel-Tec carbine. Handle both (I have) and use both and you'll agree. It has quality reliable magazines which is a benefit over the M1 Carbine which can be finicky with magazines, including USGI.


The only concern is to make sure you choose some quality 7.62x39mm. If you do not trust Russian ammo, domestic ammo is made and is high quality. However, I've never, ever had a single issue with Russian ammo of any kind - but I do prefer Barnaul over Wolf since it is mil-spec and a bit hotter. Just like a pistol, it is highly advised to fire at least 200 rounds through the defensive firearm to determine reliability of the firearm, the ammo and the magazine as a "package"...

 

[md7]

Foxtrot, I have just decided recently what my HD/ SHTF rifle will be. I have decided on the Marlin 1894 in .44 mag. It is reliable, simple, ammo is easy to get, has a 10 round capacity, and is accurate out to about 150 yds. An added bonus to me is that I can get one for about $400.00 and still afford to get a good bit of ammo. Good luck, and let us know what you decide on.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

To the AR Pistol detractors...

Have you ever seen what a soft point 55gr .223 at 2200-2400fps will do to a semi solid medium of the same density as flesh? Smaller than a dime sized entry hole, slightly greater than a half-dollar sized exit hole . One would ruin your day, let alone 30 ... Leave the fmj m193 and m855 for the rifles, that's where it shines, even though at home defense ranges, m193 would still(unreliably) fragment out of an 10.5-11" barrel. Hell, just get down right evil with it and load up some ballistic tips !!!

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[Foxtrot427]

Hmmm saiga. Didnt think about that. I have never been an AK fan but you cant deny that rifle is a fine piece. So I guess its down to Saiga and SU-16C. I like this saiga specifically

seems like there is alot like that available.

 

[Bill_G]

could someone provide a link where i could buy the saiga pictured above my post??

Thanks...........Bill

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I'd get the non-Dragunov style stock. The original hunter style stock might be better. Just my opinion.


There are a number of places where you can get these.


Best price I've found is Onpoint Firearms right here in Saint Petersburg, Florida. They'll ship to your FFL.


http://www.onpointsupply.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=42189&substring=Saiga


$216!! Can't be beat afaik.


This is the link to the PG drag stock version (it's $286)

http://www.onpointsupply.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=48124&substring=Saiga


The cheekpiece is adjustable. But I've heard that the grip angle is not comfortable. That's why I went with the regular stock.

The .223 version is also $216. The .308 is $305. There are 20" versions of all of these.

You get an Arsenal-quality AK action (maybe better barrel actually), in a complete rifle for $216 which is just $50 more than an unissued Yugo SKS is simply unbeatable.

 

[Foxtrot427]

For the price of the saiga I think I may get both. Maybe use the Saiga more as a utilitarian rifle and the SU-16C as a range toy and a backup. It IS more compact. And even though it doesnt matter too much, it is pretty slick looking. Anyone ever used a saiga or Su-16 in an emergency or in a competiton? How did it run?

 

[doc tc]

home defense means not shooting the neighbors. so thinking "rifle" is a bit counter-intuitive as dry-wall does not stand up well to centerfire rifle cartridges.

so think "shotgun" for home defense. and not "slug gun" either.

if on the other hand want you WANT is a slick-looking auto-loader then pick what you like and call it what it is, a SHTF rifle. it's okay. SHTF rifles are way fun, just not in the living room.

doc

 

[Zach S]

home defense means not shooting the neighbors. so thinking "rifle" is a bit counter-intuitive as dry-wall does not stand up well to centerfire rifle cartridges.

Drywall wont stand up to squat. You could shoot through it with a BB gun, so its not going to do much to stop a handgun round.

 

[Foxtrot427]

I could take a .50BMG shoot it in all directions and not hit a neighbor. Im safe there. As far as another person in the house, its small, everone sleeps in one side of the house. Just the way its set up, not much chance. Plus dryway isnt holding up to some 9mm, .40, or .45. I dont want a rifle because its slick and cool. I want something that is light, maneuverable, fast, etc.