Heaviest powder in 38 Special

[gunboat57]

I've been reloading rifle cartridges for years but now I'm just getting started reloading 38 Special and 357 Mag. I was wondering what powder should I use if I want factory load performance but I want to use the greatest weight of powder per load.

For example, say I can get factory performance using 3 gr of powder A. But I can get the same performance using 7 gr of powder B. I'd rather use powder B.

From looking at load data it looks like Alliant 2400 is what I want. Any other recommendations?

Oh yeah, I will probably stick with 158 gr lead or JSP bullets. My revolvers have 4 inch and 6 inch barrels.

 

[Walkalong]

Blue Dot. Should be more powders. Blue Dot I know will be a heavy charge weight wise.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well the original load for .38 Special was 21 grains of black, but that might take your idea a little farther than you really want to go with it.

Do you really want the greatest weight of powder (why?) or do you want the greatest volume of powder, perhaps to relieve your mind of the risk of double charges? Not the same thing; Trail Boss is made for the latter purpose. It is of low density and fast burn rate, so you do not use a heavy charge weight, but it is so bulky that a double charge will still overflow the case or at least be immediately apparent when you go to seat a bullet.

 

[griz]

Is your goal to burn more powder or fill the case up as much as possible with a normal 38 special load? I ask because if it is the first, then Trail Boss will be your best bet. If the later, then you are right, 2400 will be hard to beat. But it is a pretty slow powder for a 38, you might get a lot of unburned powder. Blue Dot, Power Pistol, AA #5, Universal, etc are more typical slow powders for 38.

 

[griz]

Sorry, Jim got there first!

 

[gunboat57]

I shoulda mentioned that I weigh my powder one load at a time, at least for now. I'm used to weighing out 90 or 100 gr charges so I figured the heavier the powder, the more consistant I'll be when dealing with small amounts of powder.

The point about bulky powder being a safe guard against double charging is a good one. I use a single stage press but even so to prevent double charging I have a piece of wood dowel with marks indicating fill level. I typically charge a dozen cases then check fill level and hand seat a bullet in each. Then on to the press.

I'm finding as I get older that I have to be more disciplined in my loading routine. So far the worst goof I made was loading a complete round without any primer. "Where's that powder coming from?"

 

[NailGun]

gunboat57, While Blue Dot is a heavy powder, and can be used in both .38 spl. and .357 mag., it is not my powder of choice. I have had less than satisfactory results in my handgun rounds. Works good for rifles though.

I have had good and consistant results using Unique and Lil-Gun.

My new favorite .357 mag. load for my 686 with 6" barrel is a Rem. 158 gr. JSP over 16.5 gr. Lil-Gun, using WSPM and Win. brass. This load gives me very good accuracy, high velocity, and is "clean".

I use Unique on all my .38 spl. loads. It does what I want it to do.

Hope this helps.
NailGun.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Aah come on Jim...Black powder burns soo dirty...

If you are looking for powder density then your best bet is Alliant 2400, W-296 or H110. 2400 being the most versital of the three. 2400, W-296 and H110 are not for .38 Special. Although I do show a few listings of 2400 and W-296 for .38 Special. With .38 Special I would suggest W-231. Though you might have to pay attention as to what you are doing to insure you don't get that dreaded "double charge"...

 

[Steve C]

Compared to a rifle case the .38 spl is very small. If you use slow pistol powders like 2400, Blue Dot, etc in the .38 spl. you'll find they produce lots of powder residue and smoke the outside of your cases as the pressure is relatively low. These powders are excellent in the .357 magnum with its higher pressures and will fill the case nicely.

Use a medium burn powder in the .38 spl like Unique. Its bulky enough that a typical 4.5 to 5.0gr load will show an obvious double charge.

 

[gunboat57]

Thanks for all the input. My local gun shop has 2400, Unique and Blue Dot so that's probably where I'll start.

 

[CZ57]

One 57 to another: walkalong has it right in that Blue Dot loads will typically require the highest charges across the board in .38 Special. There are also loads you'll find with 2400, H-110, W296 and IMR 4227, but not as commonly.

Blue Dot is fairly bulky, but I wouldn't call it a heavy powder. The unit of measurement to determine powder weight is bulk density. Example, the heaviest handgun propellant I'm aware of is AA#7 at 985 grams per liter. Not all manufacturers give bulk density. Accurate does, Ramshot does at their website and in past manuals. As far as metering precision, ball (flattened spherical) powders with high bulk density will also be the best metering, especially, combined with their small physical size. That doesn't necessarily mean that lighter powder won't meter easily, but some with large physical grain size can make it more of a chore, i.e. 800-X. If you have the LEE dippers, and I've had them around, mostly unused for about 25 years, but the 1cc measure will allow you to determine bulk density fairly easy with your scale. The conversion from grains to grams is .0648, Grains multiplied by .0648 to get grams.

Not that I don't use Blue Dot, or other extruded flake powders, but they are typically lighter in bulk density vs. their ball powder counterparts. This is also why some flake powders will give decent case fill with lower chargeweight. Some ball powders have fairly low bulk densities as well, like a flake powder. AA#2 is an example at .650/cc, or 650 grams per liter depending on how the powder co. measures them.

Load density is a bit limited by the .38 Special case, and its low pressure rating. One reason many don't bother with it and use light charges of fast burners. Nothing wrong with either method and personally, I like high load density wherever possible, particularly in auto loader cartridges, i.e. AA#7 in 9mm. Economy is usually the determining factor here. I wish there was plentiful data for #7 in .38 Sp. but there are some cases where a great powder isn't suitable for a particular cartridge. #7 would be a good ball powder equivalent to compare to Blue Dot in this case. Conversely, if using low charge weight loads in .38 Special, those that are insensitive to powder positioning make a lot of sense, i.e. Titegroup, AA#2, Ramshot ZIP.

Hodgdon gave data for HS-7 at one time, and with the absence of data for AA#7, some fairly heavy powders you're most likely to find .38 Special load data for are HS-6, AA#5 and Ramshot True Blue, but load density won't be near 100%, so, Blue Dot may be what you want, but be aware, there are better metering powders. One reason I though I'd give some background on this very good topic.

 

[RON in PA]

Loading for handgun cartridges is not like reloading rifle cartridges, especially the 38 special. I'm not advocating unsafe or sloppy practices, but a lot of the procedures that I'd recommend for precision, accurate rifle loads are just a waste of time with handgun loads unless you intend to shoot slow fire bullseye at 50 yards. Case trimming, champhering and primer pocket cleaning are a waste of time, but tumbler cleaning is not. Weighing each individual charge ia also a waste of time. If you want to stay with the single stage press than I'd advise a powder measure like the RCBS Little Dandy witch dispenses powder by volume (listed powder charges are nominal and you need to weigh a sample to know what you are actually throwing). Best powders for such a system are powders like 231 (which I recommend for 38 special) and if my memory serves HC110 and 296 for .357 meters well.

Also if you really get into loading for handguns and want a decent volume to shoot on a regular basis I'd advise upgrading from your single stage. The relatively new Lee Cassic Cast Turret press with the Safety primer system and one of Lee's disc power delivery systems is many steps above a single stage in volume yet allows better control of loading steps especially with priming. I do prefer it over a true progressive even if slower.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Real slow powers don`t always give good results in low pressure cartridges. You risk poor ignition, and lower velocity then a more suited powder will give. Try a powder that fills 1/2 the case such as Unique, Herco or other powder of this burn range and I think you`ll have better results. The fact the case is 1/2 full with a proper chaarge will allow you to see if a dbl charge has been thrown. The 2nd 1/2 case of powder will overflow or at least top off the case.

These powders will also do fine in your 357 as a med/high velocity loading. The down side is you still wont fill a case here with a dbl charge. Good loading practice though will keep you safe and the ammo for both will preform better. The added 6-7gr of powder in the magnum case will stand out when you check the powder level by sight.
BTW, These powders will give factory+ velocity in the 38 with no problem, and approch within 1-200 fps with the 357 and 158 gr bullets. 1280 fps with 158 JHP according to Alliant data with Unique. This will have no notible effect on target or game at common handgun ranges.

 

[TonyT]

With low pressure cartridges like the 38 Special it's much better to use a faster burning powder. With lead buyllets TRrail Boss, WST, American Select and Bulseye are my favorites. I load my 357 to very mild velocities (ca 38 Sp +P+) and use either American Select, VV N-320, or Bullseye. The faster powders burn cleaner.

 

[fecmech]

2400 is probably the best powder to allow you to get 1000 fps at max safe pressures with 158 and 173 lead swc's in 6" 38 specials. They will be very accurate and consistant but they will be dirty! After firing 6 rounds you will have tiny black sand like particles that look like miniture poppy seeds everywhere. If you are using an S&W or other da type revolver they can and do get under the extractor star and bind up the gun if you remove cases with the muzzel down. 2400 does'nt really burn clean till it gets up in the 30K+ range, as others have posted it's mainly a magnum pistol powder and an excellent one at that.

 

[Walkalong]

Universal Clays is also fairly bulky, burns well in big cases, and will give similar velocities to Blue Dot (in +P .38 loads) with less powder and recoil. It is a pretty good powder for +P .38 loads.

AA# 5 is hard to beat for good velocities in standard .38 loads.

700X is pretty danged good for light .38 loads. So good I have not experimented with others such as AA# 2, WST, American Select & N320 which should all do very well.

I would not use "the bulkiest powder" as my main guideline for loading the .38.

 

[cheygriz]

There are several powders you could use.

I use HS-6 in all my .38 special, 9MM, .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads. I load heavy.

Power Pistol, Universal, AAC#5, Unique will all do what ou want.

But if you want to duplicate standard (not +P) factory .38, I would just use Titegroup, AAC#2, Nitro 100, Bullseye, or 700X. Getting a double charge isn't going to happen if you're CAREFUL.

 

[HeedJSU]

since it's a pretty full case and a slow burning powder, would it be acceptable to use magnum primers and 2400??

(noob q, sorry; I'm getting ready to buy my first pound of powder and box of primers, and I do want to fill the case to avoid dbl charges, at least for now)

Justin.

 

[CZ57]

HeedJSU: acceptable if it's called for in the data your looking at. If you want to use a magnum primer, follow the data they're recommended for.

 

[HeedJSU]

that's the thing....I haven't looked at a whole lot, but I've never seen anything that calls for magnum primers....when are they supposed to be used? (sorry to thread hi-jack)

Justin

 

[CZ57]

With powders that are a bit more difficult to ignite. Mostly ball powders in the case of the .38 Special. I use older manuals quite a bit and I started to mention this before and didn't. SPEER recommends a Magnum primer in their #11, but the Lyman 46 recommends the standard CCI-500. The charges will be different because the use of a magnum primer will increase the overall pressure of the load. That's why I said, follow the recommendation of the data you are using.

 

[fecmech]

Heejsu--The mag primer is not going to cure the problem, 2400 in order to burn fairly clean needs to be up over 30k psi which is 10k over max safe for a .38 spl. The double charge thing is a "Boogey Man" that is way overhyped IMO. You are supposed to be paying attention when reloading so just pay attention. Use normal 38 special powders such as Bullseye (which I buy in 4 lb. kegs) 231, Tightgroup or any other of the fast burners which make good, accurate, and safe 38 spl. loads.

 

[cheygriz]

I don't use magnum primers in any of my pistol loads. Not even full power .44 magnum, with a case full of H110.

 

[tube_ee]

Caution about Blue Dot...

It burned very poorly in .38 Special, at least for me. So badly, in fact, that I could see the actual blue dots on the frame of my revolver. This was using loads in the 6 - 6.6 grain range, IIRC, with a 158 grain lead bullet.

I do like it as a mid-range .357 Magnum powder, but I was unhappy with in the .38.

YMMV.

--Shannon

 

[Walkalong]

Universal Clays is also a light brown color and easy to see in the case. Load with it for a while until you get more comfortable and less worried about a "doublecharge". Eyeball every charge you put a bullet over and you will be fine. Those that get into trouble are not paying close enough attention to what they are doing.