sansone
Member
I switched from unique to lilgun for my 357/6" because it burns slower. no good for my 3".380 though(too slow a burn) lilgun meters real well
Heaviest powder in 38 Special
- Thread starter gunboat57
- Start date
- Status
CZ57
member
tube_ee: that is a pretty light charge for Blue Dot. One thing you have observed is that if you don't load Blue Dot to near maximum in the .38 Special, you'll have unburned powder. The Older data I use takes the load up into +P and the minimum charge is higher than the max. you're showing.
This is all about loading specifically for performance. Obviously you don't want to use Blue Dot for plinking loads, anymore than you'd want to build +P with the very fast burners. well, some might, but not me. When used to build +P loads, Blue Dot tends to give the highest velocity you'll find for .38 Sp. +P. That's the case in the SPEER #11, anyway. One rule doesn't cover everything here, but I do believe that there have been some good recommendations for a good all-around powder for .38 Sp. Unique has been used for this for about a century now, Universal would be a cleaner burning alternative and AA#5 is a very good choice. The last loads I put together were with Rem. 140 gr. SJHPs and Ramshot True Blue and I recommend it. It is a very good powder that gives very uniform ballistics in a high number of different loads.
This is all about loading specifically for performance. Obviously you don't want to use Blue Dot for plinking loads, anymore than you'd want to build +P with the very fast burners. well, some might, but not me. When used to build +P loads, Blue Dot tends to give the highest velocity you'll find for .38 Sp. +P. That's the case in the SPEER #11, anyway. One rule doesn't cover everything here, but I do believe that there have been some good recommendations for a good all-around powder for .38 Sp. Unique has been used for this for about a century now, Universal would be a cleaner burning alternative and AA#5 is a very good choice. The last loads I put together were with Rem. 140 gr. SJHPs and Ramshot True Blue and I recommend it. It is a very good powder that gives very uniform ballistics in a high number of different loads.
CZ57
Loads were taken from online sources, and sanity-checked with the Alliant online reloading guide. Per Alliant, 6.3 grains with the 158 grain bullet is a +P load at 17,000 psi... which I think is below SAAMI standard pressure for the .38 Special. Their standard load with that bullet is 6.1 at 15.6K. I think I might have gone as 6.6 grains, but the ammo's long gone, and I stopped using Blue Dot in the .38 after that experiment, so I don't remember exactly.
In .357 Magnum, I load 10.3-10.6, depending on what my measure is throwing that day. Alliant shows a load of 10.7 at 33K with a 158 grain bullet. Obviously this is also less than full pressure for the .357. I've seen reference to loads up to 12 grains, but I've also read that Blue Dot can get into a region where pressure rises very quickly with increased charge weight, so I'm not pushing it. If I want maximum speed in .357 Magnum, I'll use another powder. Plus, I like this mid-range load. Plenty of power, accurate, fun to shoot.
So, there's obviously room to interpolate between the low-end .38 and the mid-range .357. At the time, I was not experienced enough to try it. Blue Dot was the 2nd pound of powder I ever bought. I was looking for a powder that would cover the range of .38 to mid .357, and Blue Dot looked like a good choice. It wasn't, for me, at that time. OTOH, Blue Dot metered extremely consistently through my Lee Auto-Disk, so I tried Green Dot in the .38s, and I've been very happy with it.
I might give Blue a try again in the .38... at what point has it started burning well for you? Obviously, I'd have to try a range of charges in my own guns to know for sure, but I'm curious to hear your experiences.
Just so you know, I got poor burn in every gun I shot those loads in. Even in my Marlin I was getting intact flakes and bright blue dots.
--Shannon
Loads were taken from online sources, and sanity-checked with the Alliant online reloading guide. Per Alliant, 6.3 grains with the 158 grain bullet is a +P load at 17,000 psi... which I think is below SAAMI standard pressure for the .38 Special. Their standard load with that bullet is 6.1 at 15.6K. I think I might have gone as 6.6 grains, but the ammo's long gone, and I stopped using Blue Dot in the .38 after that experiment, so I don't remember exactly.
In .357 Magnum, I load 10.3-10.6, depending on what my measure is throwing that day. Alliant shows a load of 10.7 at 33K with a 158 grain bullet. Obviously this is also less than full pressure for the .357. I've seen reference to loads up to 12 grains, but I've also read that Blue Dot can get into a region where pressure rises very quickly with increased charge weight, so I'm not pushing it. If I want maximum speed in .357 Magnum, I'll use another powder. Plus, I like this mid-range load. Plenty of power, accurate, fun to shoot.
So, there's obviously room to interpolate between the low-end .38 and the mid-range .357. At the time, I was not experienced enough to try it. Blue Dot was the 2nd pound of powder I ever bought. I was looking for a powder that would cover the range of .38 to mid .357, and Blue Dot looked like a good choice. It wasn't, for me, at that time. OTOH, Blue Dot metered extremely consistently through my Lee Auto-Disk, so I tried Green Dot in the .38s, and I've been very happy with it.
I might give Blue a try again in the .38... at what point has it started burning well for you? Obviously, I'd have to try a range of charges in my own guns to know for sure, but I'm curious to hear your experiences.
Just so you know, I got poor burn in every gun I shot those loads in. Even in my Marlin I was getting intact flakes and bright blue dots.
--Shannon
I have to go with CZ57 here. That is a light charge of Blue Dot and that is why you are getting unburnt powder.
I don't use Blue Dot for .38 Spl. because you have to stay around max to get clean burn. At max and then into the +P range Universal will give near Blue Dot performance with less powder and less recoil. I prefer Universal over Blue Dot in the .38 in the bulky powder dept. A bit faster powders are all around better for most loads though I think.
Yep.
I have not tried True Blue in anything, but hear good things.
CZ57
member
tube_ee
First off, just so everyone will know, I'm not recommending Blue Dot as the powder of choice for .38 sp. because the best application is for +P with loads at or near maximum charges. There are a couple of things that might help though. Since the time of the SPEER #11, SAAMI has lowered the pressure rating of .38 Sp. and .38 Sp. +P. The load you're using is for a 158 gr. LSWC, so the charge would be higher for a JHP based on that alone, but at 6.3 grs. it is a start charge for the 158 gr. SPEER SWC in the #11 Manual. Another thing you'll notice is that powder manufacturers data is a bit more heavy laden with liability concerns. Load manual data will run higher for charges even if they quote the same pressure rating as the powder manufacturers data. By all means, get some load manuals. The Lyman Pistol & Revolver is a good one as is the SPEER.
Blue Dot will do better in .357 Magnum cases because of the higher operating pressure of the cartridge. I've burned plenty of it, so I know why you like it for that. Personally, I have never had any problems with Blue Dot. I have seen reports of pressure spikes, but I was also aware at the time that there were some lots that left the factory that burned faster than typical for the powder that some folks might not have been aware of. I still have Blue Dot on the shelf, but when it comes to higher velocity .357 Magnum loads, I switch over to AA#9, anyway. For the type of loads that you're talking about, I wouldn't worry much about excessive pressure, but you may still see unburned powder granules.
I don't recommend interpolating data. Get a good manual and you won't have a need to. Now, I won't say that I've never done it, but the cases where I have, are pretty isolated and based on many years of experience. The other case has been when there was NO data for a particular powder & cartridge and then I consulted with the powder manufacturers ballistician. In this case it was for using V-V 3N37 with 230 gr. JHPs in .45 ACP, and no data existed.
Blue Dot will not burn well until you get near the max. charges listed for the cartridge and since the pressure rating for the cartridge has been reduced, I'd look at one of the other powder recommendations since you're out. If you shoot these loads in a .357 Magnum revolver, you can probably pick up an older manual like the SPEER #11 at a gunshow. I don't know what type of revolver you're shooting, so in the interest of safety, I don't want to put loads up on the forum that could be used by others that might just be starting out and may not have a revolver rated for them. Sorry, I'm not trying to be evasive, but I'll tell you this: if you don't need top performance of the .38 Sp. cartridge and at +P pressure, Blue Dot is better reserved for your .357 Magnum loads.
I went back and checked the advisory for loads of this type.
WARNING! The following data comes from the SPEER #11 Reloading Manual and is higher in pressure than the current rating for .38 Special +P ammunition.
The load range for SPEER's 158 gr. Lead SWC is 6.3 - 6.9 grs. of Blue Dot. Velocity recorded from a 6" Ruger Security Six is 956 FPS for the maximum charge.
The load range for SPEER's 158 gr. JHP is 7.5 - 8.4 grs. of Blue Dot. Velocity for the max. charge was 1051 FPS. The pressure rating for .38 Sp. +P was 22,400 CUP at that time. In PSI, that would be near 23,000 PSI, and 4500 PSI above the current SAAMI pressure limit of 18,500 PSI.
Walkalong: standard deviations for True Blue are phenomenal from .380 to .454 Casull, typically single digit with several under 5, but you'll need their #3 load guide to get SD numbers. They quit printing them in later editions. Personally, I find it a better alternative to Unique for guys who might want to keep powder inventory simple. It is a slower burner and around HS-6 and V-V N340 in burn rate. I don't know if it's isolated to CZ 75s or not, but my 75 B in .40 S&W loves the stuff! And, with jacketed and hardcast bullets. Really good in .45 ACP loads as well when you need velocity, or a powder that will push 230 gr. bullets to around 900 FPS. It has worked well in 9mm as well as .38 Sp. and it's suitable for medium velocity .357 Magnum.
First off, just so everyone will know, I'm not recommending Blue Dot as the powder of choice for .38 sp. because the best application is for +P with loads at or near maximum charges. There are a couple of things that might help though. Since the time of the SPEER #11, SAAMI has lowered the pressure rating of .38 Sp. and .38 Sp. +P. The load you're using is for a 158 gr. LSWC, so the charge would be higher for a JHP based on that alone, but at 6.3 grs. it is a start charge for the 158 gr. SPEER SWC in the #11 Manual. Another thing you'll notice is that powder manufacturers data is a bit more heavy laden with liability concerns. Load manual data will run higher for charges even if they quote the same pressure rating as the powder manufacturers data. By all means, get some load manuals. The Lyman Pistol & Revolver is a good one as is the SPEER.
Blue Dot will do better in .357 Magnum cases because of the higher operating pressure of the cartridge. I've burned plenty of it, so I know why you like it for that. Personally, I have never had any problems with Blue Dot. I have seen reports of pressure spikes, but I was also aware at the time that there were some lots that left the factory that burned faster than typical for the powder that some folks might not have been aware of. I still have Blue Dot on the shelf, but when it comes to higher velocity .357 Magnum loads, I switch over to AA#9, anyway. For the type of loads that you're talking about, I wouldn't worry much about excessive pressure, but you may still see unburned powder granules.
I don't recommend interpolating data. Get a good manual and you won't have a need to. Now, I won't say that I've never done it, but the cases where I have, are pretty isolated and based on many years of experience. The other case has been when there was NO data for a particular powder & cartridge and then I consulted with the powder manufacturers ballistician. In this case it was for using V-V 3N37 with 230 gr. JHPs in .45 ACP, and no data existed.
Blue Dot will not burn well until you get near the max. charges listed for the cartridge and since the pressure rating for the cartridge has been reduced, I'd look at one of the other powder recommendations since you're out. If you shoot these loads in a .357 Magnum revolver, you can probably pick up an older manual like the SPEER #11 at a gunshow. I don't know what type of revolver you're shooting, so in the interest of safety, I don't want to put loads up on the forum that could be used by others that might just be starting out and may not have a revolver rated for them. Sorry, I'm not trying to be evasive, but I'll tell you this: if you don't need top performance of the .38 Sp. cartridge and at +P pressure, Blue Dot is better reserved for your .357 Magnum loads.
I went back and checked the advisory for loads of this type.
WARNING! The following data comes from the SPEER #11 Reloading Manual and is higher in pressure than the current rating for .38 Special +P ammunition.
The load range for SPEER's 158 gr. Lead SWC is 6.3 - 6.9 grs. of Blue Dot. Velocity recorded from a 6" Ruger Security Six is 956 FPS for the maximum charge.
The load range for SPEER's 158 gr. JHP is 7.5 - 8.4 grs. of Blue Dot. Velocity for the max. charge was 1051 FPS. The pressure rating for .38 Sp. +P was 22,400 CUP at that time. In PSI, that would be near 23,000 PSI, and 4500 PSI above the current SAAMI pressure limit of 18,500 PSI.
Walkalong: standard deviations for True Blue are phenomenal from .380 to .454 Casull, typically single digit with several under 5, but you'll need their #3 load guide to get SD numbers. They quit printing them in later editions. Personally, I find it a better alternative to Unique for guys who might want to keep powder inventory simple. It is a slower burner and around HS-6 and V-V N340 in burn rate. I don't know if it's isolated to CZ 75s or not, but my 75 B in .40 S&W loves the stuff! And, with jacketed and hardcast bullets. Really good in .45 ACP loads as well when you need velocity, or a powder that will push 230 gr. bullets to around 900 FPS. It has worked well in 9mm as well as .38 Sp. and it's suitable for medium velocity .357 Magnum.
Last edited:
Dump that Blue Dot!
Blue Dot sucks!!! I hate Blue Dot. At 357 velocities I got leading, and at velocities less than magnum velocity I got huge extreme spreads and lots of unburnt powder. I wish I had a picture of the amount of unburnt powder I had on the table, when I tested Blue Dot for 38 Special loads, but it was tablespoons of the stuff. I so much unburnt powder under the extractor star that I had to blow and wipe off the cylinder on each six shots or I could not close the cylinder.
I have tried Blue Dot in 9mm, 38 Special, 357, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, and 45 Long Colt. This powder is so unsatisfactory that I cannot say it is a good choice for any of these calibers.
Blue Dot sucks!!! I hate Blue Dot. At 357 velocities I got leading, and at velocities less than magnum velocity I got huge extreme spreads and lots of unburnt powder. I wish I had a picture of the amount of unburnt powder I had on the table, when I tested Blue Dot for 38 Special loads, but it was tablespoons of the stuff. I so much unburnt powder under the extractor star that I had to blow and wipe off the cylinder on each six shots or I could not close the cylinder.
I have tried Blue Dot in 9mm, 38 Special, 357, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, and 45 Long Colt. This powder is so unsatisfactory that I cannot say it is a good choice for any of these calibers.
CZ57
member
Walkalong, I haven't used it yet, but I understand it is catching on very well with comp shooters. ZIP is also worth a look. I talked to the Sierra techs a few weeks ago and they really seem to like ZIP. In their last manual it was the most accurate powder used with their 200 gr. FP match load. I am using Silhouette and it is very accurate in .40 also. 50' 5 shot rested groups under one inch with some one-holers. True Blue will do the same, but seems to do a tad better with cast bullets. Silhouette is the same powder formerly sold by Winchester as WAP and data is interchangeable, Ramshot is using the data generated by Winchester. It and Competition are their only powders not coming from Belgium, they are both manufactured by Primex. ZIP is a little slower than Comp. and around W-231 in burn rate, but is supposed to be quite a bit cleaner burning.
And I said one case; there is another. And, I did have to interpolate to do it, but I looked over a lot of data, then looked and looked again. No load data exists for Silhouette in .357 Magnum, so I worked up a load for use in short barrel revolvers with the Remington 140 gr. SJHP. pressure data is pending and I sent it to Ramshot to see if they'd be interested in pressure testing it. I believe it is under 35,000 PSI with a safety margin and once that is confirmed, I'll post it.
And I said one case; there is another. And, I did have to interpolate to do it, but I looked over a lot of data, then looked and looked again. No load data exists for Silhouette in .357 Magnum, so I worked up a load for use in short barrel revolvers with the Remington 140 gr. SJHP. pressure data is pending and I sent it to Ramshot to see if they'd be interested in pressure testing it. I believe it is under 35,000 PSI with a safety margin and once that is confirmed, I'll post it.
SlamFire1...
I have not seen any evidence of poor burn in any of the guns I've shot my Blue Dot .357 loads in.
As a .38 Special powder, with the low-pressure loads that I tried, I'll agree with you, but at mid-range .357 Magnum pressures, it burns well in my guns.
I might try loading some in .38 Special brass at a charge somewhere between .38 special and .357 magnum pressures, since I have only .357 Magnum guns, but then again, I might not. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, even if I try it myself. If I decide to do this, I'll build up from the 6.6 grain level (where I had poor burn) until it burns clean, and that's where I'd stop. I suspect that that level will be close enough to the .357 loads that I'm already loading as to not be worth bothering with, but there may well be some sort of threshold effect in there. Gunpowder is funny stuff.
--Shannon
I have not seen any evidence of poor burn in any of the guns I've shot my Blue Dot .357 loads in.
As a .38 Special powder, with the low-pressure loads that I tried, I'll agree with you, but at mid-range .357 Magnum pressures, it burns well in my guns.
I might try loading some in .38 Special brass at a charge somewhere between .38 special and .357 magnum pressures, since I have only .357 Magnum guns, but then again, I might not. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, even if I try it myself. If I decide to do this, I'll build up from the 6.6 grain level (where I had poor burn) until it burns clean, and that's where I'd stop. I suspect that that level will be close enough to the .357 loads that I'm already loading as to not be worth bothering with, but there may well be some sort of threshold effect in there. Gunpowder is funny stuff.
--Shannon
4fingermick
Member
Paco Kelly had an awesome load for 18oGn XTR bullets in a 38 special +P case for use in rifles only! I have his CD Book somewhere, but can't find it. Has anyone else got it?
CZ57
member
Mick: I don't have the CD, but I had his site bookmarked until my last computer crashed. Impressive stuff, especially heavy bullet data for .41 Magnum.
- Status
