Heavy mystery time ?

[blarby]

Or am I just missing something ?

In the vein of .44 threads lately, I thought I would start my own.

So, my .44 mag revolver is developing an irritating personality trait.

Let me explain :

When I first got this piece, I went up and down the spectrum of jacketed loads in both weight and powder charge.

It hated 300g bullets of all types and diameters.

It really liked 240g JHP's by nosler, and favored h-110. It also liked 240g plated using hs-6.

Enter cast bullets !

It liked 240's with GC's sized to .430. It used to like tumble lubes sized to .430, but lately after about three cylinders, it starts leading so bad that it shoots a pizza "pattern" at about 12 yards. Its not a group anymore. I have factory buckshot that groups far better than this.

I've had my wife shoot it- she's a much better shot than I, and you can watch the bullets spiral out further and further with each passing bullet.

I blame speer.

It tasted some 200g speer jacketed bullets using 20grs of H-110 that I got in trade some time ago, and it must have favored the delicacy- as it wont shoot anything else straight anymore.

No, they aren't oversized, these speer bullets. Best I can tell, they also haven't magically expanded my BBL.

After shooting three cylinders of cast, if I shoot one or two jacketed through it to blow out the snot, it shoots fine for one, and then further down the spiral we go again.

It still shoots 200g projectiles far better than it does anything else. I think its confused, and believes itself to be a 44 special, as the rifling is really only 3" long.

Meh, I'm really just trying to justify to myself purchasing a new sizer die for my Saeco so I can get some use out of this 215g GC-HP mold that JShirley sent to me.

I think the gun is trying to help.

So, I guess the question is : Anyone else have 44mags that like light bullets ? If velocity is the King, and fitment is the queen, this doesn't seem like a horrible combination. I just feel like my revolver has "nerfed" itself.

 

[FROGO207]

Take some oversized soft lead bullets or balls and slug each cylinder separately then slug your barrel. If your cylinders are smaller than your barrel there WILL be leading unless you can expand the bullet base to fit. A jacketed or plated bullet will go down the tube without problems anyway. Some have such a problem the revolver would blow up before you get enough pressure to bump the base up. A softer bullet would work better---somewhat. The best answer would be to have the cylinder throats opened up to the correct size to shoot lead bullets. If the revolver is new I would get the factory to make it work correctly if it is used a local gunsmith would be less expensive IMHO. So slug the thing and let us know what it is as a first step.

 

[blarby]

Cylinders : .431

Slugged bore : .429-430 @ grooves. Could be a faulty caliper though- but its certainly not the backward proposition that would be an easy spot.

*sad trombone*

Its not new anymore, but is still covered under the taurus "lifetime of keeping it at our repair facility" warranty.

I'd assume convert it to shoot paintballs before sending it back again. It might come back even worse than it did last time.

Essentially, I'd like to be able to shoot 200(ish) grain jacketed bullets, but its a little spendy.

I'm thinking a GC'd bullet in that weight range might do the trick- just wondering if anyone else has a 44 that prefers or just shoots really well light bullets, or is this one just an oddball.

 

[FROGO207]

How does the forcing cone look? Are you SURE the barrel is clean (use chore boy clean, then use copper solvent clean)? Are the lead bullets hard or soft? Have you tried higher pressure loads with the lead bullets? Lower pressure loads? a differet propellant with the lead loads? It may be a problem with twist rate and lead bullets as a guess as I do nor own one. Hopefully someone that has used lead in one of these already will chime in soon and shed some light if there is a problem. Your revolver may just NOT like some combos.

I have a couple Ruger Super Blackhawks ~6 inch and ~10inch SS models they both really like 240 grain Keith style SWC lead bullets (made from wheel weight lead) well using H110, Blue Dot, and 2400. My Blue Dot load of 16.1 grains is the best shooting in the short barreled one. I think that If I could squeeze dirt together tight enough to shoot it would work well in them. I have not tried many other bullet weights as what I have has worked so well and I have a mold already. I have shot 2 50 CAL ammo cans full of them this summer so far. I also use 240 grain Jacketed with H110 as well as in my Desert Eagle.

After reflecting again did you clean the cylinder throats really well also? If one is dirty/carbon ringed that could cause odd problems with a correctly sized revolver. Still possibly crud on the forcing cone could cause problems. Good luck solving this one.

 

[Slamfire]

I never had any luck with 200 grain lead bullets in the 44 Mag or 44 Special. Push them and they lead. I shot enough in the 44 Special that I was able to develop some acceptable loads in a pistol that was sighted in for 200 grain bullets, but I had to really cut back on the velocity, something around 750 fps.

290/300 grain bullets kick too much, so I decided I was happy with 240's/250's.

 

[41 Mag]

HAve you pulled any of your loaded rounds and measured the bullet dia to be sure they aren't being sized by the cases?

If not, knock one out that has been loaded, don't have to be with powder and all just a sample test round would work. MEasure the diameter of the bullet, it could be your getting them sized down smaller once they go into the cases. THey should still be right at the same deminsions as they were when they went in.

IF they are smaller, could be the sizing plug might be the issue, or if your using one of the Lee FCD's that is usually the cause. THe FCD's carbide ring will usually size the bullets smaller as it passes through and presses the case down to that deminsion. If you ARE using the FDC, try loading up some using the regular seating die and crimp in a separate operation.

Something just isn't right with your issue here. Either the bullets are being sized down somewhere along the loading process or you could have a bit of a tight spot just as the barrel screws through the frame. The latter has been ofund to cause all sorts of headachs as well. If you felt no tight spots when you slugged your barrel I would lean towards the sizing plug or the die. IF there IS a tight spot these can usually be shot out using the barrel lapping bullets. Just start out with the medium ones and go smaller verses going straight to the heavy grit ones.

Hope this helps.

 

[JLDickmon]

HAve you pulled any of your loaded rounds and measured the bullet dia to be sure they aren't being sized by the cases?

Now there's something I doubt I would have thought of!

 

[kelbro]

Another thing... Give the barrel a good cleaning. Down to the bare metal. The notion that shooting jacketed bullets cleans out the lead is misguided. What it does (in my experience) is just layers copper over the lead and then lead goes back over the copper. Gas checked bullets do seem to scrape some leading out.

Never shot Taurus 44 Mag but all of my Rugers (44mag and 44spl) needed .431 lead as a minimum and performed the best, accuracy-wise and leading, with .432s.

Switching back and forth between lead and jacketed always messed up my accuracy. I would say give the barrel a good scrubbing and then run some .432 lead through it. It may take a couple of cylinders to re-season the bore. If you want to shoot jacketed, scrub the barrel again and re-season with a cylinder of jacketed and then start your testing.

The only 200gr bullets that I have ever been able to get to shoot worth a hoot were the 200gr XTPs and they still didn't shoot as well as the 240gr XTPs.

 

[jjjitters]

Did you actually push a soft lead sinker(what I use) down the barrel or just measure with calipers? What you need to do with a revolver is to push a slug down the first inch from the muzzle, then push it back out, so it just measures the muzzle end. Then push another slug in from the chamber end abotu an inch and then back out. What you need is the true size of the bore at the muzzle and under the area that the barrel is attached to the frame(some are squeezed smaller here and are a major cause of leading.

Use a MICROMETER for these measurements, not a caliper, it defeats any reason for slugging by using a devise that won't be accurate enough to do any good.


So to sum up, I would like to see the true sizes for the cone, 2 barrel measurments 1 muzzle/1 chamber end, I feel these numbers will tell you what is going on with your leading. Either fixing the cone or using larger bullets ect...

Before shooting lead, all copper fouling needs to be out of barrel to prevent the lead from smearing( basically galling) from the contact between the two.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Or being post-sized if using the Lee factory crimp die. Do you use one of those?
Either way, pull a round and measure it.
Also, consider trying some unsized if possible.

 

[blarby]

MAny good responses.

We'll suffice to say I know how to slug, and can cast as many round balls of the appropriate size as needed to get accurate measurements.

The bore does not retain either lead nor copper burnishing significantly after a proper cleaning, confirmed during an examination using a borsescope.

FWIW- de-leading using a jacketed round on a properly seasoned BBL does work quite well, actually.... enough for the range. It doesn't substitute for proper cleaning once you get home, but it makes a 1 hour chore of scrubbing lead out into a five minute process.


After a furious night of slugging, i've found what I believe to be the problem area.

Its the forcing cone.

I went back to all of my slugging measurements from when I first got the gun. It was hard to find the book, since the gun was acquired during/right after a move. But I found it.

Its changed by at least .001 depending on how you measure it, from when I received the pistol brand new. I suppose this can be attributed to a rough and tumble break in period, or it being a Taurus- depending on who you believe.

The cylinders are fine, the bore is fine, whats happening- to the best of my knowledge, is that its widening/sizing at the forcing cone on impact, and shrinking/sizing on the rifling/grooves when it hits the BBL.

Apparently, the cone took the break in period more than anything else. I dunno if this is normal, or not...

This never used to happen- and explains the "change" in the results of firing from when the gun was new, to its current condition.

 

[jjjitters]

So the cone is egg shaped?, is it bigger than the groove dia? if so that would be good,as long as its not too out of round. Another thing is the leading right after it or farther down the barrel? Does the leading seem to build up on the front edge of the rifling? A too soft or undersize bullet can "skid" as it first hits the rifling and is trying to start spinning. Since it is a short barrel, is the twist rate faster than the normal .44Mag( I'm not up to speed on specs for the .44), if Taurus has a faster twist rate it would worsen the skidding because the bullet has to get rotating quicker. A harder alloy will help this condition, as long as the fit is good. Maybe another thou. bigger bullet would be something to try, or a harder alloy/water quench for a test batch.