Heinlein a gun guy?

[TehK1w1]

I've noted recently that more and more of Robert Heinlein's quotes have been showing up in sig lines. Does anyone know what his experiences with firearms were like? Some of his comments certainly seem to show a lot of insight into the world of firearms and gunowners. My personal favorite from the Grand Master-
"If all the people who were killed with unloaded guns were laid end to end it would make quite a line up" -Robert Heinlein, Red Planet(1949)

 

[Piraticalbob]

Heinlein in his book Glory Road talks of guns to a certain extent, mentioning 1911's and '03 Springfields, but Heinlein was primarily a blade guy, having fenced in Annapolis as a US Navy Cadet. He purposely forgoes firearms and advanced weaponry in his survival novel Tunnel In The Sky, arming his protagonist there with a Bowie knife strapped to his hip and a smaller dagger attached to his leg.

 

[HK G3]

I like his Starship Troopers quote: "Force, my friends, is violence, the supreme authority, from which all other authority derives. Naked force has settled more issues in history than any other factor. The contrary opinion, that violence never solves anything, is wishful thinking at its worst. People who forget that always pay."

Sure, it's an incredibly authoritarian thing to say in a certain context, but the simplistic truth behind it is somewhat appealing to me.

 

[Nolo]

I think I can pretty much say, having read enough of his works, that, yes, Heinlein was a gun guy.
In Tunnel in the Sky, Heinlein forgoes the protagonist using a firearm because he makes an excellent point about a firearm making you feel "seven feet tall".
They do, for the inexperienced.
Veterans know better, but those of us (myself highly included) who haven't been through Hell and back with a gun on our backs get the feeling that, as long as we have that rifle in our hands, we could take on the world and win.
Besides, how boring would the world be if the only weapons were ones that killed everything by pressing a button?
Pretty damn boring, if you ask me.

 

[thisisdenny]

quote from the forward (by Heinlein) of my copy of Expanded Universe:

"So I intend to be careful - not chopped down in my prime the way my ancestor was. I shan't bulldog any buck deer, or cross against the lights, or reach barehanded into dark places favored by black widow spiders, or - most especially! - leave my quarters without being adequately armed."

shrug- maybe he was talking about knives... but being a gun guy myself, that's not how I took it when i first read it.

 

[LoneStranger]

The primary thing to remember about RAH is that he was always about the most dangerous thing you can carry is that lump of flesh between your ears.

You can train it to do amazing things and yet you also need to pay attention to where you are and what you are doing.

The point about the use of knives in "Tunnel In the Sky" was that they put you in the mindset that you are not a King of all you survey, but rather a target for others. Then since your objective is not to conquer but survive you need a different mindset that carrying firearms will not supply.

When you have been Renshawed get back to me on RAH.

 

[Sackett]

Ok I give...
Spent the last 1/2hr reading his wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein) and they can't seem to decide whether he was a Socialist, Communist or Conservative Reaganite!

I like to think he was a gun guy. He certainly believed in the virtue of individual responsibility and self-reliance.

One of my favorites, commonly attributed to him:
"An armed society is a polite society."

 

[LoneStranger]

He was a Socialist, was a Democrat, doubt he was ever a Communist, believe he was a nudist, and he became a somewhat libertarian-conservative. I suspect that makes him flexible like anything with great strength to it.

 

[Piraticalbob]

The point about the use of knives in "Tunnel In the Sky" was that they put you in the mindset that you are not a King of all you survey, but rather a target for others. Then since your objective is not to conquer but survive you need a different mindset that carrying firearms will not supply.

The protagist in Tunnel In The Sky was given one of his two knives by his sister, who was a member of a military unit. In the discussion in which she gifts him the knife she mentions that, although she carries plenty of more powerful weaponry, she also carries the knife. At the end of the book, after the survival ordeal is over, the protagonist is last seen as head of a group going to colonise a primitive planet; although he has guns, his two knives still are part of his equipment.

I'll again mention Glory Road. The protagonist of that book, Oscar Gordon, carries a sword out of necessity, not by choice, but praises the effectiveness of this ancient weapon from the first, and at the end of the book when it is time to adventure again, straps the sword to his side.

So what does this mean in terms of Robert Heinlein? That, if told of a situation into which he must participate, and allowed his choice of weapons, would probably take as much firepower as he could get away with, and if a sword was one of the options available, would strap that on, as well.

I won't set myself up as a Heinlein guru that must be deferred to; these are just my opinions after having read many of the man's works. In the end I think Heinlein would be very similar to George Lucas' Obi Wan Kenobi, who although appreciative of the value of other weapons, felt that the sword (light saber) was an elegant weapon for a more elegant time.

 

[akodo]

in farnham's freehold he has a character with a 45 acp Thomspon automatic which I first assume is of course the SMG, but he later sticks it in his pocket, and treats it like a handgun.

When I was younger I liked Heinlein, but then I started to notice how he set up strawman targets for those sharing his philosophy to knock down and then declare how smart and right they are. To me that is a disservice to the community. We need to know how to deal with real criticism. Hitting a slowpitch baseball out of the park is no big deal compared to a fastball barely in the strike zone.

Also, in some of his later books, his mindset really shown through (and later, re-reading some of his fun books like Starship trooper) it became clear he had some serious serious issues. I'd not have trusted him to watch my back.

 

[garyhan]

Heinlein was indeed a libertarian, having evolved to that point from one time being a socialist candidate for office (believe he ran for congress about 1940).
He was not a hunter or, I believe, a collector. He certainly owned and was familiar with firearms, and was a major supporter of Rkba.

Gary

 

[svtruth]

In Beyond

this horizon (the source of the sig line about a woman going armed, and the armed polite society quote, IIRC) he waxes rhapsodic about a 1911.
But the hero hands it to a friend after dropping the mag, saying "there, I've pulled its teeth".
If there was no round in the chamber, that was un-necessary, if there was, it was ready to fire.
My guess is he liked the idea of guns but lacked much real experience.

 

[unspellable]

Heinlein

Heinlein was an Annapolis alumni and a naval officer. As such, he would have had the usual military training with small arms. In his civilian life, the only firearm I know of him having was a small semi-automatic pistol. (This is not to say he did not have other firearms.) In all, he strikes me as being proficient and knowledgable about firearms, but not a true "gun bug".

He ran for office in local politics as a Democrat. I never heard anthing to say he was ever a socialist. Later his views moved towards libertarian.

One must be very careful about inferring an author's personal views from those of his characters. The characters ARE fictional.

 

[Titan6]

Like most people his political views changed over his long life. I would say they ran from National Socialist to Libertarian.

 

[bcp]

in farnham's freehold he has a character with a 45 acp Thomspon automatic which I first assume is of course the SMG, but he later sticks it in his pocket, and treats it like a handgun.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Heinlein and arms...

In Starship Troopers RAH has Sgt. Zim lecture the trainees that they are being trained to be dangerous, as long as they still have one operable hand, one leg, or their teeth.

It's the mind which is dangerous--the weapon is merely a tool. Knives are nice and quite; there are circumstances in which that is much to be desired. They are also handy to cut stuff and pry stuff, they weigh less than a firearm, and are less socially unacceptable.

ST, besides being a heck of a good read, is a VERY serious discussion of the rights and responsibilities of a citizen. When he wrote it, RAH must have been a libertarian; no other political persuasion of which I am aware could see citizenship in the light in which he presents it.

I like his attitude a lot.

I'd not have trusted him to watch my back.

He can cover my six any time. I know very few people of whom I'd say that.

 

[armedandsafe]

When I was a child, just before my teens, I was too dumb to know that famous people were to be revered and not bothered by us mere mortals. I wrote to and received notes back from several SF authors, among them RAH.

With him, I discussed the wisdom of my getting into competitive shooting with my then-new-to-me 03A3. I was 9yo. He was supportive and commented on the importance if using the mind as much as, or more than, the physical skill. That sounds like a gunner to me.

Pops

 

[Phil DeGraves]

One must remember that the Democrat (as epitomized by the people in office) of 1940 is a far cry and does not resemble the Democrat (as epitomized by the people in office) of 2008.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Physical vs. Mental...

I used to play soccer (back in the days when I had knees, and could run, that is.) Discovered pretty quickly that beyond a certain qualifying skill level, the game is ALL mental.

Then, later on, my team (which was pretty good, in our league) played a team that was far-and-away better physically. Discovered pretty quickly that my mindset didn't matter a bit--the opposition was still going to run past me with the ball as if I weren't even there. And if I got the ball, they'd take it away from me in seconds. And if I passed the ball, they'd intercept. Didn't learn much from that game, except dealing with utter frustration.

HOWEVER (there is always that darn "however,") considering skills to be at least somewhat comparable, the mindset is everything.

He was supportive and commented on the importance if using the mind as much as, or more than, the physical skill.

But you must NEVER stop trying to perfect your fundamental skills.

Kids have problems with this in soccer--They don't want to spend an hour practicing fundies, they just want to play. I guess that's why most of us don't make it to the Olympics.

That's why dry firing every night is so important. That's why bullseye pistol shooters burn up so much practice ammo.

Skills AND mindset. Skills AND mindset. Skills AND mindset. Skills AND mindset.

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

Heinlein was a big part of why I got into guns. I was reading his later stuff, the Lazarus Long books and stuff. I'd never read books from quite that perspective, one that believed that being armed was a right and not a privilege (or a crime). Made me think, and definitely clashed with how I was raised.

 

[CWL]

Heinlein definitely felt that the population had a right to posses firearms, and that it was the Nation's responsibility to maintain a strong military. Individual rights needed to be earned -not really Libertarian but could be 1950's Democratic mindset.

I always felt that he was more of a Fascist, or probably something like an 18th Century 'Enlightened Despot'.

 

[Vaarok]

Starship Troopers and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are probably the two most influential books I've ever read.

He was a Nietzschean style self-improvement self-reliance advocate and influenced most of the people who later founded what is nowadays known as libertarianism.

Back then, he was just a little more vocal than average.

The beginning of Time Enough For Love, with the discussion about the precautions necessary for living in a disarmed society, is pretty much how I envision the UK ending up.

His storytelling is wonderful both because it's great adventure fiction, and it very skillfully also serves as a vehicle for his philosophical and political essays.

Plus, I've got first-edition copies of Starman Jones, Podkayne of Mars, and Farmer in the Sky. 'cause I'm awesome like that.

 

[dracphelan]

IMO, Heinlein was a tool man. He believed in whatever tool would do the best job. Sometimes that is a firearm, sometimes it is a knife, and sometimes it is just the spoken word.
If you read some of his non-fiction essays, you will see that he hated communism. This became true after his trips to the Soviet Union.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

"a boy who gets a 'C-minus' in Appreciation of Television can't be all bad."

-RAH Starship Troopers-

I believe he also saw early the lack of value in television.

 

[Blkhwk41]

Thompson Auto Ordanance 1911

I wonder if that pistol was around when Heinlein wrote the book .....