help a n00b with .45 ACP reloads

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

antarti

Member
Joined
May 6, 2005
Messages
516
Location
Florida
New to reloading and this board, please be patient... not trolling here.

I decided to get into handloading. Mainly for the .45 pistol (DW 1911) lately. Procured what I needed thinking "It's .45 ACP, been done a million years, should find lots o concrete data."

3 Questions came to mind:

1) Well, I have lots (3 sources) of reloading data, but agreement isn't happening with the HS-6 powder I bought. I took one source and start load and I used it (with a longer OAL), but the max loads are WAY different. Starting loads seem to agree more. Is 2 grains that small a difference with HS-6 in a .45? Seems like a big diff to me, but I'm new to this.

2) I also have seen OALs from 1.195 to 1.275 quoted (or none...). All I care about at this point is a safe load that feeds well and can be worked up to mid-range; not looking to turn the .45 into a .45 Win mag. I am using both the 185 Rainier FP and HP bullets. The DW feeds any factory fodder with aplomb, but are any OALs "easier to digest" for a 1911 with the FP and HP profiles?

3) The FCD die is set to produce case headspace diameter (hope thats the right term) of .469 (going from memory), is that too much crimp on the plated bullets? I pulled one and it looked swaged down.

I loaded up just 21 of the FPs at an OAL of 1.230 (kinda split the diff) with 8.6grn HS-6. Was gonna run 3 mags at the range soon in addition to a couple hundred factory rounds to create a bigger "brass pool" while I practice.

Hodgdon 26 lists 8.6 as max with NO listed OAL, but the web data lists 9.6 (a misprint or changed in 27?). Rainier/Midway load map shows 2+ GRAINS MORE as max (with the same 8.4grn starting load) with the OAL "seeming" to be 1.275. Lee data shows 8.6 starting load and 9.6 max at 1.195+" (I guess any longer OAL is OK as it will only decrease pressure, assuming it feeds).

I want to load up a couple hundred for the range, but figured I better ask those questions first, dissasembling ~20 is easier than 200.

I thought this was gonna be easy, and it is mechanically... too much choice isn't a bad thing, but I get confused easy looking at these max loads and OALs and trying to square them with "what's safe".

Equipment is a Lee Classic Cast Press and Lee Carbide 4-die set, with Hornady LNL bushings and Model M scale (weigh each charge). Seems very easy to turn out rounds that measure identical (to the .001) to factory ammo (my carry silvertips) in any dimension I choose to measure. That part seems to be going well.

I've been lurking here a week or so, and decided to join in. Thanks in advance for any help. I really tried to search other threads for these answers. My questions are probably too dumb, but better to look dumb here than at the range with a blown up 1911, or one with a bullet in the bore.
 
I'll try to address some of your questions and hopefully others will come along soon.

2 full grains difference in a 45 ACP shell is significant. Stick with one reloading manual--I'd start with the lowest minimum that is listed and work up from there. Take a look at the range supplied (for example, 1.0 grains to 5.0 grains and work up in small increments; e.g., loads at 1.0 grains, 1.5, etc)

Always make a dummy round and load it in your pistol. OAL may be different for different pistols, so getting into the habit of doing that will help in the long run. I like Lee's reloading manual, mainly because it's very, very straightforward and lists minimum OAL, too.
 
Always try to go with the newest data for your bullet. Componts change (primers, powders, cases,) and the fact your Hornady hydra shock is different then the Speer RN or a Rainer LRN makes a big difference in pressure sometimes. Don`t shop in the manuals for the data with the highest listed charge, stay with data useing your components if possible.
Try to get data developed in a pistol not a pressure barrel. The OAL of 1.275" is a clue it came from a pressure barrel and is the SAAMI max. They will work great in a Contender pistol at this lenght but, it likely won`t work/chamber in your Kimber. The 230 gr RN styles for sure won`t! Also the differance in OAL needed to make them feed in your pistol can make a differance in pressure, especially when you get near max.

The Lee FCD brings the case mouth and wall to the proper measurment. The die does swag the bullet and I don`t use them for this reason, it has to effect accuracy in my mind if the bullet is altered. They`re a answer to a non-existing problem in my opinion, the regular taper crimp dies works just fine for me. I`ve never had a loaded round in nearly 40 yrs of loading that didn`t chamber. True, if you screw up the die will cure it, but the object is to produce good ammo from the start. :what: You FCD users out there don`t bother flaming me, I ain`t changing my mind :neener: :neener:

Don`t stop asking if you have more questions. I know someone here will give ya a good answer if you have problems.
 
1. More load data is better. Try not to think of printed data as recipes or rules, think of them more in terms of the results of an experiment. Different people with different equipment got different results on different days under different conditions. Different bullets product different pressure curves. Your plated JHP is probably going to reach peak pressure with less powder than the Nosler JHP that I might use. If the data just says 185 JHP you have to wonder how they came up with that. 8.6 grains of HS6 is a light load under a 185 grain bullet. I load as much under a 230 grain FMJ.

2. Different bullet shapes will cause variation in OAL . If the load is near MAX for your exact combination, don’t load under the length listed. Doing so can make major changes in pressure. This isn’t as big a deal in the 45 ACP some other cartridges.

3. The Lee FCD will swage bullet bases. Damage to the bullet base is detrimental to accuracy. If you don’t have a problem with your accuracy, then don’t worry. Poorly plated bullets can have problems if overcrimped.


David
 
Start with lower charges

I recommend lower charges, no need to push the envelope on the maximums, just forget them.

Low to mid-range is the way to go, and they will often be more accurate that way anyhow. I thought I saw a plated bullet was your choice, and I know the Berry's that I use are recommended at low to mid-range charges only.

I load at .01 shorter than max length, and dont have any feeding problems. I have read, and perhaps believe, that OAL doesnt matter much on larger pistol carts, other than to keep them even.

You read that stuff about starting low and working up? My advice is to throw out the higest loads you found, and dont use the other high charges, because you dont need that much powder. :) Enjoy!
 
FWIW HS-6 is IMO too slow a powder for .45ACP. To start out I'd recommend Titegroup or Win 231. If you must have a slower burning powder then AA#5 works well for 230 gr bullets (not so well with 200 or 180's - at least not for me).

.469 crimp diameter is IMO too much.

.470 is recommended by many but in my experience .471 to .472 works just fine.

OAL - for faster burning powders like TG and W231 I stick with 1.2. For slower burning I go out to 1.25. I've never had a FTF on either of those lengths or any length between those.

YMMV...
 
Big thanks

Thanks for all the help, I've learned a few things... correct me if this doesn't sound right:

1) I think I need to get some more data. From now on, only data with OALs published is for me. I think I'll pick up the Lee 2nd Ed. in a couple days, and refer back to my Hodgdon #26 only for sanity-checking, since there arent OALs published in it. I'll try and get my mitts on the Hornady or Lyman (and some free sheets from the bullet makers) manuals also.

2) OAL doesn't seem to be critical for feeding (up/down to a point) or varies by gun as far as preference. It's only for pressure/safety as represented in the books by a minimum OAL. I can deal with that...

3) The starting loads I have "seem" Ok in the powder and OAL dept (not excessive, rather really the start load I was trying for), but I need to take MAX loads with a grain of salt if there are wild excesses in one source. Again, makes sense, just needed to hear it.

I'm probably going to max these out at 9grn HS-6 eventually (after testing and working up) to accomodate the plated bullets and I'll be plenty happy for practice ammo. If they are burning relatively clean and function well, I'm set. Even medicre accuracy (<4" at 25 yds) in my Dan Wesson .45 would be fine. It has big express sights for rapid combat shooting, and no fat-clover-leafs are going to be possible due to the sights (and my eyes) anyway. It is a ridiculously accurate "factory" 1911 however (even with cheap ammo), so I am curious to see how the reloads behave. They do drop into/out-of both the Match and Target barrels, and fit in the mag, so they should function ok (fingers crossed).

4) I didn't crimp at all with the bullet seater, using the Lee FCD for that purpose, and I should re-think that (or just conduct an experiment) and see what the results are. I'll try crimps using the seater die and measure them, then pull the bullets.

5) I chose HS-6 because it seemed to work in a large # of calibers I might also reload for (9mm, 10mm, .38 special). After searching/reading around, it seems like everybody has a different favorite for each caliber... I better do some more reading, maybe I made a mediocre choice by trying to get something "flexible".


Thanks again... if I'm wildly off-base above, let me know.
 
Last edited:
HS6 is a fine medium burn rate shotgun/pistol powder. It does well in a wide variety of situations. While it might not be perfect for 45 ACP practice ammo, I like it for 45 ACP +P as well as moderate 10mm, 38 Super, 357 Mag. and milder 44 Magnum loads. You may want to consider another faster powder like Bullseye, Green Dot, 700X or 231. Since you already have a Hodgdon manual, maybe Clays or HP-38. With one of these and a slightly slower powder like HS6, you can load load from everything except top end magnum revolver loads.

David
 
3) The FCD die is set to produce case headspace diameter (hope thats the right term) of .469 (going from memory), is that too much crimp on the plated bullets? I pulled one and it looked swaged down.
Click to expand...


Seems very easy to turn out rounds that measure identical (to the .001) to factory ammo (my carry silvertips) in any dimension I choose to measure. That part seems to be going well.
Click to expand...


The Lee FCD brings the case mouth and wall to the proper measurment. The die does swag the bullet and I don`t use them for this reason, it has to effect accuracy in my mind if the bullet is altered.
Click to expand...


.469 crimp diameter is IMO too much.

.470 is recommended by many but in my experience .471 to .472 works just fine.
Click to expand...


Excuse my ignorance :)


Does this mean Silvertips (if measured to be exactly the same dimentions as Antarti's handloads) are factory crimped in such a way that swages the bullet also? Does bullet design come into play? I thought about it, and if they are all the same diameter, and brass is in spec....they must be swaged.


I am getting the impression that the FCD isn't such a good thing? Is this coming from an all-out accuracy perspective, or does this apply to plinking and blasting ammo too? Silvertips, when used for carry, doesn't need to be accurate, just needs to go bang.


That being said, is the FCD ok to use on bullets or ammo that isn't going to be match grade?
 
DTOM, if the bullet plus the case wall thickness is greater then the diameter of the round after sizeing with the FCD then it`s swagging the bullet. How much it hurts accuracy is dependent on the shooter, pistol, range of target, ect. I don`t know if most, me included, can tell the difference at 15-20yds but, I`m sure a bullseye shooter can. The die doesn`t have any effect on plinking or general use loads and will insure defence loads feed so it isn`t a no no, just a way of fixing a problem that may not even exist.

I think of them like small base rifle dies. They use them for resizeing ammo to be used in autoloading rifles. Sometimes the case base/head expands some and regular dies stop sizeing about .20" above the rim which could cause feed problems. These dies size all the way down to the shell holder and are suppose to garentee the ammo will chamber. (sound familiar?) I know quit a few auto shooters and none of use a small base die, they use the std die they use on ammo to shoot in their M700s and they work just fine.

Personally I`d try loading my ammo with the dies I bought and if I can`t get the cartridge to feed when properly used, then I`d consider looking at a FCD. So far this hasn`t happened. If I have no problem, why crush bullets and add steps to my loads?

If it ain`t busted, don`t fixed it.
 
Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die

Some people criticize the CFCD because it can and often will resize the bullet in the brass after loading. They say this will hurt accuracy due to bullet deformation and to less tension on the bullet because the brass case springs back but the lead bullet doesn't.

This is true as far as it goes. If I were shooting 50 yard NRA slowfire, I would surely use same lot brass and properly sized bullets so as to get best accuracy and still have reliable function without the FCD.

But if you are loading cheap bulk cast bullets in mixed brass, as I do for IDPA practice at 5 to 20 yards, reliable operation will be helped by the FCD. Especially if you have an undersize chamber as is common in mass produced guns chambered with a worn reamer, or an aftermarket barrel with "minimum match chamber."

I load .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ with standard Dillon dies throughout.
I use a Lee/EGW "U" undersize sizing die for 185 gr JHP to get more bullet pull on the short bearing surface, you cannot crimp a loose bullet tight.
I use standard sizing die and Lee CFC die for bulk cast bullets.
I don't cast my own pistol bullets to where I could control diameter.
 
Wow, excellent info and insight guys, much appreciated.


Seems like the FCD is ok for blasting ammo. I understand the whole "if it ain't broke,don't fix it" view also. I guess it is just an extra.


Does the FCD have any advantage over any regular taper crimp as far as gripping the bullet to prevent it from changing seating depth under recoil?


I've shot a Star PD .45acp with 230gr full power ammo, and the recoil was pretty high for that gun. I would hate for bullets to shift causing a pressure change.

Am I being too paranoid?
 
Powder choice and other matters

I would like to get more reloads per lb of powder, but being a beginner it seemed "safer" to go with powders like HS-6 or Accurate #5. That was a secondary concern for me when it came to powders for my first reloads.

HS-6 and AA#5 take more grains per load, and have a somewhat wider allowable range for each cartidge. Since I had no experience weighing and checking powder charges, i figured HS-6 would be a "safer" choice, as compared to say Bullseye.

I used dippers and trickled each charge up, then inspected cases for powder level, and weighed the "highest" and "lowest" looking ones (which all took a while - hey, it was my 1st time, and I didn't want any surprises) and found 1 case that differed by .1 grain, how I don't know.

Anyway, that's why I'll probably stick to some sort of powder for the near future that requires a hefty charge, just to get as much margin for error as I can until I'm more comfortable.

As for the FCD, I figured if the ammo that came out of it matched factory in every regard, that was a source of comfort that things were "done right". IIRC before the FCD the case mouth was .472. I'll try crimping without the FCD and drop rounds in the barrel, and see what happens.
 
Lots of people here use the Lee FCD on a regular basis. I tried and in a couple of calibers and stopped after I found how much it swaged down bullets. Other people are pefectly happy as you will see if do a search for it.

David
 
Lots of people here use the Lee FCD on a regular basis. I tried and in a couple of calibers and stopped after I found how much it swaged down bullets. Other people are pefectly happy as you will see if do a search for it.

David
Click to expand...

I think you might have over done it.
I've been using it for awhile now with no ill effect.
 
The Lee FCD is adjustable. If you're getting .469 crimp diameter after taper crimping with it you probably have it set almost to maximum crimp.

Back it off until the crimp diameter is .471 (what I like) or .470 (recommended by many).

The .471 diameter I use doesn't allow set back at all and I've tested it (5 groups of 5 cartridges - each cartridge loaded into the chamber 5 times - measure the OAL after each chambering). Of course most of that is dependent on the brass, the bullet, and the chamber. For me it's about an even split between Federal, Winchester and S&B brass used with 230 gr Hornady XTP's or Remington 230 gr FMJ's. Test done twice - once on a Sig P220 and once on a S&W 1911 Target.

If you really want to get into the details then measure brass wall thickness, add twice that to the bullet diameter and you end up with the uncrimped diameter.

EX...
Bullet diameter - .451
Case thickness - .010

Equals uncrimped Diameter of .471
In this case .001 of crimp is recommended to give a crimp diameter of .470.

Now is that .001 compressing the brass or suaging the base of the bullet down to .450? Good question. My guess would be a little of both.

Pull the bullet and measure both case wall thickness and bullet diameter to know for sure.

Personally - that's more trouble than it's worth.

Just settle on a crimp diameter, set the FCD accordingly and forget about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

MoreIsLess
  • Locked
Feeding problems, 45 ACP
Replies
9
Views
733
MEHavey
MEHavey
J
  • Locked
Oal???? 45 Acp
Replies
14
Views
2K
joneb
joneb
F
  • Locked
FTFs with reloads????
Replies
18
Views
834
freakaccident
F
R
  • Locked
Why do OAL Sources differ?
Replies
7
Views
543
Jim Watson
J
D
  • Locked
OAL Question (sorry, long winded)
Replies
5
Views
729
blue32
blue32
Back
Top