Help Answer a Nagging Question About Jobs and Economics

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Way to go, bountyhunter......

"....and business is all King George cares about."

... and the cycle continues until you have only two classes of people, similar to Europe in the 1800's."
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A swat at "Dubya" (or was it really 'king' George:confused: )

A reference to class warfare.....


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"Our cemetaries are full of the victims of that policy when reagan was governor and the massive poisonings of the water tables have yet to be cleaned up (if they ever could be)."
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And, yes, a swat at evil Ronnie Raygun for poisoning all those children's water!
:rolleyes:


Uh, sorry, where were we....?
 
I deal with EPA and OSHA (and numerous other useless agencies) all of the time.

When is clean enough clean enough?
When is the workplace safe enough? (I have a saying that the only safe workplace is one where no work occurs)
Have you seen the Federal Register entries (and state laws as well) for environmental and safety regulations? If you think the IRS and the tax code are bad, try to digest all of these "feel good" regulations and compounding layers of feces while some are contradictory. :fire:

The left always claims that only the left can clean the air, land and water and protect workers. Note to the left: nobody wants to poison the pond and kill the workers. Is some regulation necessary? Yes. Set standards that must be met for releases to the "public" domain. Allow the evil business to determine the best way to get there.

Environmental regulations are too burdensome for the return. We passed the point of diminishing returns in the mid-90s. Somehow the left feels that we are not yet there. What no one knows is where is there? How much will it cost? Business can deal with risk but can not deal with uncertainty.

CalOSHA is one of the most rabid socialist worker's paradise militant organizations on the planet. They do things that would make the Earth Liberation Front blush. There was a time and place for safety regulation. The workplace and equipment used in the workplace today are safer than ever, and insurance companies are penalizing companies with high injury rates.

CalOSHA shows up to "investigate" and literally takes over these small manufacturing facilities, raise cane for 2 or 3 days, and then leave. Six (yeah, that is 6) months later (law requires no more than 6 months) the company recieves the "citation and notification of penalty." What kind of "safety" regulators would wait 6 months to inform a company of serious violations that could cause injury? No sane one. It is another penalty, or tax, on the workplace, nothing more.

Just to keep this on topic:

Gun ranges are being terrorized by the "lead (Pb) police." It is for the children. :rolleyes: I have seen and submitted proposals for numerous gun ranges closing in the PRK. Reason? Inadequate ventilation/lack of control for the "lead hazard." The problem is not the installation of the proper equipment, it is the open-ended litigation made possible by scare tactics.
 
Jim March...
I think you hit the nail on the head!(quite a few times!) The real reason that they want to take away the guns is that when the American people figure out the screwin they're getting at the hands of the rich ie the government, there might be revolt........got to keep the peasants in line you know. I have felt for some time that the rich no longer want to share with us.....they cant lower their standards...for heavens sake. I know my standard of living has fallen dramatically in the last five years and it worries me, and for my kids future.
 
yeah i doubt bush came out to support outsourcing (political suicide defined???)........
Doubt no longer. Bush did.

Treasury secretary defends outsourcing
...
Treasury Secretary John Snow on Tuesday defended U.S. corporations' right to send U.S. jobs offshore to cheaper-labor countries, and said a more productive source for jobs might be found by breaking down global trade barriers.

Snow was asked on CNBC television whether he would advise U.S. corporations to reduce the rate at which they are "outsourcing" U.S. jobs by having them performed in countries like China and India.

"I think American companies need to do what they need to do to be competitive, and as they're competitive, it's good for their shareholders, it's good for their consumers and it's good for their employees," Snow said.
...
Job losses and outsourcing, often using computers to ship work -- ranging from x-ray analysis to preparing data information -- to countries where people earn far less and have fewer legal protections in the workplace have become hot-button issues in the runup to November's presidential vote.
...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4365553/

...
President George W. Bush hit back at Democratic critics of his administration's job-creation efforts on Tuesday, branding them as "economic isolationists" who would raise new trade barriers and damage the US economy.

The comments came as part of what appeared to be a co-ordinated administration effort to respond to growing political pressures over the anaemic pace of US job growth, which has helped push Mr Bush's likely Democratic opponent, John Kerry, ahead of the president in several recent polls.

In a speech in Virginia, Mr Bush said: "There are economic isolationists in our country who believe we should separate ourselves from the rest of the world by raising up barriers and closing off markets. They're wrong. If we are to continue growing this economy and creating new jobs, America must remain confident and strong about our ability to trade in the world."

Robert Zoellick, the US trade representative, similarly warned Congress on Tuesday that "given the fact we're now in a stage of an economic recovery, the absolutely worst thing we could do would be to turn to economic isolationism".
...
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1078381644895

Powell Reassures India on Technology Jobs
NEW DELHI, March 16 — Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, encountering the other side of a tempestuous debate in the United States, sought to assure Indians on Tuesday that the Bush administration would not try to halt the outsourcing of high-technology jobs to their country
...
In Washington, the White House endorsed Mr. Powell's comments.
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/international/asia/17POWE.html
 
what has this got to do with GUNS

What has this got to do with guns? If I want to read economics I will read Milton Friedman.
 
well, schromf.....

w4rma likes to get all fired-up about those media reports blaming "Dubya" for whatever.

The solvent w4rma had to use to get all those Dean stickers off the car may be exacerbating the problem.....:)

w4rma hasn't actually said much about guns....I don't think there's much interest there. :(
 
IMHO,,,,, Our economy is in bad shape because we are the big brother to the world.

We have soldiers all over the globe protecting and defending other countries. Our taxes pay these soldiers, and they take their families with them and spend their income in foreign lands.

We give foreign aid money in numbers my mind can not comprehend. We create factories and jobs, and raise the standard of living for any country that will ask.

We are taxed fifty percent of our income here, so everyone with a job has to earn double what he needs.

The first step to economic recovery is to stop the federal government from giving away our money.
 
Yup. What ksnectieman said....

"The first step to economic recovery is to stop the federal government from giving away our money."
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Maybe even stop the Feds from taking it from us in the first place?:D
 
What all this has to do with guns is two things:

1. If you have no job because yours got outsourced, you can't buy guns and ammo.

2. What Jim March and WaitOne said, in spades! The standard of living for most Americans is falling, and when it falls too far too soon, the illuminati (wealthy elite) are very concerned about armed revolution/civil war. I think they're miscalculating, though. I believe there are enough of us out there who refuse to be disarmed that they won't be able to pull off their 'make America into a serfdom' scheme, and I do think we're headed for another American revolution or civil war.

To that, I say, MOLON LABE!
 
The outsourcing that is occuring might actually be a very good thing long-term, hopefully it'll give us the kick in the teeth that we need in order to realize we can't afford socialism.

If you want businesses to remain in this country you have to make it a hospitable environment in which to do business. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, trying your best to strangle a business yet existing as a parasite off of it is not an effective long-term strategy.

Here's a quick plan to make the USA more business friendly

- eliminate affirmative action. That would be a nice little boost if companies could hire whomever is best suited for the job instead of govt quotas.

- eliminate healthcare and workmen's comp. requirements on businesses. Companies used to give bennies like healthcare to attract and keep talent, they did so because it was beneficial to them, but requireing it from them on all employees is financially crushing, especially when he costs of those things are radicaly inflated due to govt intervention. More of Hegel's work here

- eliminate the matching Social Security requirement for employers. This would provide an immediate 7.65% boost to companies that employ people in the USA.

- lower corporate taxes. The USA, land of the free, has one of the highest corporate tax rates in any industrialized country, lower these rates and companies will be more likely to stay here.

- streamline and ease up on govt regulation. I'm not saying that companies should have free reign to pollute, but only that most regulations are not only harmful but they also dont do a damn thing to make anyone safer, and sometimes make people less safe.

Case in point, the EPA has severe clamps on BioDiesel fuels cause the level of oxide emmissions is higher per unit of fuel consumed than standard fuels but the total amount of oxide emmissions are lower with BioDiesel because it's more efficient. For all the talk given to helping the environment the EPA regulations harm the efforts of cleaner and renewable fuels as well as make us more dependant on Jihadist supplied oil. Bravo!!!

I wonder how many of you that are all about govt regulation of business have actually dealt with these various regulatory agencies, as every person I know that does, including my parents and brother, can all attest to financial waste caused by them while doing nothing to enhance saftey, except for the job safety of the fat bureaucrats employed at said agencies.

- eliminate the minimum wage. Suppose someone in the US was allowed to do a certain job at below the govt mandated wage, if that was the case a company could take advantage of lower wages by moving to Appalacia, which would save them money and bring jobs to an economically depressed area, but I suppose the ignorant socialist position is to mandate higher wages yet not want companies to move elsewhere.

- lessen govt involvement in education. Federal involvement can immediately be eliminated and I'll hold off what what I'd ideally like to happen to state education, but I think we can agree that watching different states try different approaches will be more helpful than the Federal/Soviet one size fits all approach.

One of the main reasons why the engineering and science depts of major universities are filled with foreigners is because Americans are unprepared and cannot compete. The mathematical and scientific abilities of American students have declined tremendously in the past 5 decades, while unsurprisingly the amount of govt involvement has risen sharply. You cannot maintain a top economy if you're routinely graduating kids that cannot read or think but are in touch with their feeling and know why evil white capitalist men are the source of the world's problems. A more free market to education is what is needed.

I could probably go into more detail as well as give other examples but what I listed would give an immediate high-octane boost to the economy, I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

If you want jobs to remain here and want a robust economy, do what I recommended and it'll happen, but are you willing to give up your favorite welfare bennie for it?
 
I can see them now, "Waaahhh, race to the bottom, don't repeal the 'Rights' of working peoples." Really, what is it with socialists.
to see this line of thought in action, re-read bountyhunter's posts :D

What mr. glockler said...


atek3
 
I, for the life of me, cannot grasp how the exportation of jobs from America could in the long run benefit the U.S. and the middle class. President Bush has come out in support of outsourcing, so how can he say he understands and supports the middle class?

Can someone please explain how America can survive when jobs are being lost by the hundreds of thousands and aren't being replaced?

The general economic answer is that economies do not run for the benefit of producers: They run for the benefit of buyers, and buyers always benefit from lower prices. Said another way, one never benefits by buying one of something instead of two for the same price, just because the seller of the one lives in your neighborhood, county, state, or country. The middle class buys the vast majority of the “stuff†– lower prices for stuff benefit them.

There are just as many jobs “lost†through paying higher prices to domestic laborers – you simply don’t see them because they aren’t created because the existing higher-paid jobs soak up the money. With lower prices, people buy other things with the leftover money, and support other businesses.

As for the money paid to foreign workers, either it stays out of the country, in which case the total money supply drops and each dollar is worth more, or it comes back and buys things, in which case it is obviously paying someone’s wages. Given that we don’t adjust trade imbalances in gold between countries anymore, the bits of paper have to eventually come back.

Dex }:>=-
 
One of the main reasons why the engineering and science depts of major universities are filled with foreigners is because Americans are unprepared and cannot compete. The mathematical and scientific abilities of American students have declined tremendously in the past 5 decades, while unsurprisingly the amount of govt involvement has risen sharply. You cannot maintain a top economy if you're routinely graduating kids that cannot read or think but are in touch with their feeling and know why evil white capitalist men are the source of the world's problems. A more free market to education is what is needed.

There's a world-class engineering college here, Michigan Tech. Many of its students are from China, a country that I think you'll agree probably is more socialist than Michigan.

To say that Americans are uneducated because of state-schools, and to say that all of these foreigners are smarter is a poor argument, since I believe every industrialized country in the world provides some form of state-sponsored education. It would seem that the quality of primary and secondary education is higher in places like, say, Japan. Japan, of course, has public schools and universities.

And, the fact that people from all around the world come to American universities for education certainly says something about the quality of our post-secondary educational institutions, if nothing else. Many posters here, for example, certainly seem well educated. I'm sure many of them went to good schools and worked hard to get there, too.

This is not to say that more money towards education is needed, only that the money there be utilized in an efficent manner. The Clinton Administration threw something like a hundred billion dollars at education during its 8-year tenure, and national test score averages went down. So it remains true that you simply can't fix a problem by merely throwing taxpayer dollars at it.

A minor point. However, I would caution against going around blaming the government for every problem in life. If Johnny does poorly in school, it's entirely possible it's because he's just not interested in studying hard. This is not to say that schools don't need reform in many places, but saying that schools, wholesale, are bad because students aren't doing well is oversimplifying the problem.

In order to compete in the US job market, you need an education or a technical skill. Now, nearly all of the low-skill manufacturing jobs have moved overseas, and our economy as a whole seems no worse for wear (the business environment in places in Asia is much like it was in the US in 1910; the sweat shops and child labor are still there, because it's monetarily efficient, but they're just overseas and you don't hear about them, much.) So quality education is exceedingly imporant if we Americans want young people to grow up to a higher station in life than being a janitor or fry-cook.

For example, I'm not spending thousands of dollars and going further thousands of dollars in debt to attend this university simply for my health; going to college, while enjoyable, is goal-oriented. Bachelor's degree so I can get into graduate school. Master's degree so I can get a decent career, maybe a doctorate eventually. It's going to cost a lot of money and require a lot of effort on my part, but the alternative of working for chump change for the rest of my life is highly motivating. I mean, a good career means good pay. Good pay means disposable income, and disposable income means more guns for Nightcrawler.

However, the highest quality education won't help if the person involved is unmotivated to work towards his goals, so personal responsibility is no less a factor now than it has ever been. If my grades are poor and I don't get accepted into grad school, you won't hear me going around saying that there needs to be more funding for schools, that I was discriminated against, or any of that. It'll be my fault and my fault alone.

However, you never accomplish anything if you don't risk failure, so what the hell. :D
 
I just love contrarian economic positions. The following op-ed piece is written by Paul Craig Roberts. He is not one of the marquis economists, but he does have a heavy weight history. Mr. Roberts is the economist, who as a staffer, wrote the legislation in the Reagan administration which resulted in 19 consecutive years of economic expansion.

His view of "free trade" is somewhat different than the herd. His columns are syndicated and can be found at www.creators.com ..

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/3/17/91158.shtml

The Missing Case for Free Trade
Paul Craig Roberts
Wednesday, Mar. 17, 2004

Belatedly, pundits are beginning to notice that economic growth without job growth is not politically viable. But they still haven't a clue about what has become of job growth.
Pundits no longer confidently assert that the massive U.S. trade deficit is good for the economy, because it puts money in foreign hands to buy U.S. exports and create jobs for Americans.

Some pundits are even beginning to realize that "lower-priced foreign goods" are not all that cheap when the price is the loss of high-paying U.S. jobs.

But pundits still believe that free trade is somehow going to bail America out and create new industries and high-value-added jobs to replace the ones lost to offshore production and outsourcing (and, I should add, to competition from Japanese industrial policy).


Sooner or later, pundits will have to face the fact that the conditions upon which the case for free trade is based simply no longer exist.

Free trade is based on the principle of comparative advantage. For comparative advantage to operate, two conditions are required: a country's factors of production must seek comparative advantage within the country and not move to absolute advantage abroad, and countries must have different relative costs of producing different goods.

When free trade theory originated two centuries ago, climate and natural resources were important components of GDP. Climate and natural resources could not migrate, and countries' different climates and resource endowments meant that relative costs varied among countries.

In today's modern economies, production is based primarily on acquired knowledge. Modern production functions operate the same regardless of their location. There is no necessary reason for the relative costs of producing manufactured goods to vary from one country to another. Only the absolute costs vary, with the advantage going to countries with large excess supplies of labor.

Economists and pundits mistake offshore production and outsourcing for trade, whereas in fact they are merely the substitution of cheap foreign labor for expensive first world labor.

It is nonsense for economists and pundits to claim that the United States benefits from the loss of jobs, capital and technology when economic theory tells us that all three are needed for economic development.

Economists need to catch up with their discipline. The latest work in trade theory is "Global Trade and Conflicting National Interests," by Ralph E. Gomory and William J. Baumol, published by MIT Press in 2000.

Gomory and Baumol show that conflict is inherent in international trade. In some cases, free trade can be mutually beneficial. In other cases, one country gains at the expense of another. In some cases trade is worse than no trade. The authors demonstrate that in no case can all trading countries achieve their individually best outcomes.

Many modern industries are characterized by increasing returns, which means that countries with industrial policies can target industries, wrest them away from free trading countries, achieve a monopoly and retain the industry indefinitely.

Gomory and Baumol remind us that the issue is not whether companies or individual consumers benefit from free trade, but whether the country overall benefits. Specific corporations and consumers can benefit from offshore production and outsourcing, while the country as a whole loses occupations, industries, production capability and GDP.

A country that produces a large share of the world's goods "has much to consume and much to trade. It becomes a high-wage, high-consumption country. This beneficial effect of being the producer of a large proportion of the world's tradable industries can be very substantial." The greater the share of world income a country can achieve, the higher the wages of its workers.

A country whose policymakers are under the illusion that free trade is uniformly beneficial is likely to find itself blindsided in the competition for important industries and occupations.

In today's world, the interest of multinational corporations can easily diverge from the interests of their home countries. When, in pursuit of lowest cost, multinationals move production for their home markets abroad, they move GDP abroad by turning domestic production into imports. A country that produces abroad for its home consumption will never close its trade deficit.

Perhaps Gomory and Baumol will wake up policymakers before the United States becomes a mere low-wage assembler of foreign-made inputs.
 
My big beef against "free trade" is it ain't free trade.

What we call "free trade" is in reality government managed preferrential access to American markets in support of US foreign policy goals. That is why it is possible to have "free trade" and import barriers at the same time. It is not unusual for US companies to face import restrictions on its products in say, India or China, yet those countries have no import restrictions on their products coming into the US. Note: bold factoids are inconsist with principals of "free trade" yet that is the terminology used.


Weeelllll, Colin Powell provides a textbook case.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001880943_powell17.html

Powell wades into debate over outsourcing in India

By Seattle Times news services

NEW DELHI — Secretary of State Colin Powell yesterday urged India to open its economy to more American goods and services to offset the loss of U.S. jobs to Indians.
But Powell told a news conference "there's no quid pro quo here" and that "outsourcing is a reality of the 21st century global economy."


"Outsourcing" refers to the practice in which U.S. firms hire workers overseas, many of them here, to do jobs such as telephone customer support, accounting and transcription previously done by U.S. workers.

The number of U.S. jobs moving to India is still relatively small — fewer than 200,000 — but has become controversial in a U.S. presidential election year that has seen anemic job growth despite an expanding economy.

American job losses might be offset after "we can get the benefit of open trade," Powell said during one of two public appearances here in which sharp questions were raised about the growing U.S. political debate and India's anxious reaction.

Powell faced tough questions from Indian college students on a lively television program over what one student called U.S. hypocrisy.

One student gibed that the United States should outsource the counting of election results in the coming presidential election "because you've got backward stuff." India, the world's largest democracy, votes electronically over a period of days.

John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate, is promising to crack down on outsourcing if he is elected. Members of Congress and state legislators also are threatening new restrictions in the face of criticism from trade unions and others.

Powell and other U.S. diplomats are using the debate and India's anxiety to press for more and speedier liberalization of this nation's markets — and the extraordinary potential offered by 1 billion consumers.

Although it has taken dramatic steps toward reform since 1991, India still has a ban on direct foreign investment in its retail sector, and imported agricultural goods face a 38 percent tariff. Those barriers, U.S. officials say, are impeding efforts to pare a trade deficit with India that topped $8 billion in 2003.
 
Doubt no longer. Bush did.

Treasury secretary defends outsourcing

"Outsourcing HAS devesated our workforce" is all a bunch of hooey. Could it in the future? Don't know...I'll get my crystal ball.

This from Kerry's own man.

ALAN BLINDER

Q: Why is jobs growth so slow?
A: This is the flip side of productivity. Productivity has been soaring, so you're not getting any jobs. But that only changes the question to: What in the world is going on with productivity?

Q: Well?
A: We're pretty confident that a chunk of this ebullient productivity performance comes from the use of information technology. A little bit of it probably comes from the normal cyclical bounce in the economy. As GDP grows fast, productivity grows fast.
But it also does appear that American businesses are working their work forces harder. That could mean working people faster in the same number of hours or working them more hours. Remember, these days, many more people are salaried workers rather than hourly employees. So BusinessWeek doesn't even think of registering the number of hours you work, and neither does Princeton for me. The government can only make an estimate of that.

Q: And it assumes we're working 35 hours per week.
A: Right. If the gap between 35 hours and what salaried workers are really working is widening that would affect productivity [as measured by the government].

Q: But why are companies working their employees so much harder, rather than taking on new workers?
A: One explanation that has been given is soaring health-care costs. If they can get 60 hours of work out of Rich Miller instead of two people at 30, they only have to buy one health-insurance policy. That's expensive these days.
Another may be that businesses are uncertain about the solidity of economic growth and, therefore, hesitant to invest in new workers. I thought that was a really cogent argument nine months ago. But now it's wearing thin. I'm not sure how much more evidence businesses need. We're now looking probably at the third consecutive quarter of rapid economic growth.

Q: How big of a role is offshore outsourcing playing in the weak jobs market?
A: Jobs have been lost to outsourcing. It's a hardship for the people who lose their jobs. That said, when people have tried to make some estimates of how many jobs may have already been involved, they tend to come up in the hundreds of thousands. I think this outsourcing is going to be a much, much bigger phenomenon as we go through time. But up to now, as far as anybody knows, it's not that large.

http://www.newsletters.newsweek.msnbc.com/id/4540501/
 
So how do all these 'foreign' companies get away with running factories in the U.S. of A.?


It's called public relations. The US car makers played up to our patriotism by saying buy American. So they said Ok we will build them in America. They opened plants in pro-business cities/states. Smart move.
 
I wonder what the net gain/loss in jobs would be if we made all our companies only produce in America and threw out all the foreign owned companies that have US plants.

I forgot. They want to have it both ways. Keep the foreign company plants and the jobs they provide AND make all the US companies hire only Americans. :uhoh:
 
Productivity is another one of those red herrings flopped out on the table to distract from the reality of the situation.

Go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics site and look up "productivity." You eventually find the definition used to measure productivity. Common sense tells you a company can not have month over month multiple percentage increases in productivity. New computer systems will give a company a one shot improvement. Resructuring will give a one shot change. An infustion in busineess operating systems will again give a one shot improvement.

However if you look at the definiton used by the BLS of productivity you will see a category lablelled as " purchased business services." In other words outsourcing. Outsourcing is the only way a company can provide month over month improvements in productivity.

It is me or is it dishonest gamesmanship.
 
Other countries, like India (most infamous), have large supplies of technically minded people who like programming and other jobs that require skilled labor. These people are trained engineers, and good at it. Nothing wrong with that.
The "programmers" India is putting out have a degree from a government school that I suspect passes everybody. My company tried to outsource some programming, and they got what they paid for.. very poorly architected, inefficient code that was filled with bugs galore. We spent more time fixing all the problems that it would to just do it right in the first place.

Highly skilled programming jobs are not being outsourced at the rate some may suspect, what are being outsourced are the low-skill programming jobs nearly data entry type work. From what I've seen (10 Indian "programmers" from 3 separate firms) these folks are in no way prepared for serious programming.

I have no fear that my job will be out-sourced. On the other hand, this could cause problems for entry level programmers.
 
The folks in India and China will learn and if the outsourcing to India and China continues, they will surpass. America will no longer be a leader in more and more industries. And it isn't just programmers, it's accountants/stock-brokers, engineers, tele-marketing, anything where the work done can be communicated to the U.S. (until the U.S. middle class's back is broken) with a phone/computer and/or fax machine. It's only a matter of time before the buisness owners pop up in India/China and American executives and the buisnesses themselves are outsourced, also.
 
"If Johnny does poorly in school, it's entirely possible it's because he's just not interested in studying hard."

I've done career counseling and the related interest and aptitude testing since '86 and started working as a rehabilitation counselor in 1974 and all I have to say is "A lot of 'em aren't interested in studying AT ALL." By a lot I mean a quarter, a half or who the heck knows how many. How the heck can so many have just simply given up?

John
 
I wasn't saying that productivity, as defined, is good, bad or ugly. I was just pointing out that both sides say that outsourcing is not that big of an issue regarding the jobs market as a whole.

I work for a medium sized software company and we have grown like crazy over the last three years. Grown in clients, revenue and salary but have not added any employees.

Why? Glad you asked. We are working smarter, more efficiently and yes, even longer hours when needed. But, by staying lean we have not had to lay off employees like most of our competitors. Companies got cocky during the dot com years and got burned. Most have learned their lesson and will grow smarter not necessarily by throwing more bodies at it.
 
You want American programmers to compete with the world? Stop all this higher-education crap where we make courses mandatory so some of the ivory tower women's studies and English Lit prof's always have a job. It's nice to learn, sure, but c'mon.

By the time you go through a 4 year course of study, the stuff you learned in the first 2 years is already starting to become obsolete. Plus, you take all the other watered down stuff along with your field of study courses. They need to get rid of the other unrelated requirements and have programmers here immerse themselves in 2 solid years of math, logic and coding. Not coding where you write a function here and there, but actually write a system that can grow and evolve with your education.

I learned coding syntax at school. 90% of the other stuff I picked up by DOING, at work or at home. Never had the occassion to work Greek Mythology into my code though, even though I spent a semester learning it and studying it.

:rolleyes:
 
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