Help me analyze this pattern

Status
Not open for further replies.

theCZ

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
808
Location
Nevada
I just got a new BPS 28ga and a Mec reloader. Last week at Skeet I was missing targets I shouldn't, so I decided to do some patterning. This pattern was at 21 yards, and I have another that shows just about the same thing. The load I'm using is:
28ga Remington STS hull
14 grains Unique
~3/4oz #9
Win. 209 primer
Claybuster winchester 28aa clone wad

My first thought on this is that it's too darn high for my tastes. I'm using this gun for skeet, sporting clays and quail, chuckar, and dove. I love the gun, and I've always loved 28ga. Yesterday I went back to the skeet field armed with the knowledge of my patterns and shot a 22, I was happy with that.

So what do you think of this pattern? If I wanted to lower the POI what could I do? I have an SKB 12ga O/U that I used for skeet and Sporting Clays and it shoots a 50/50 pattern, which I prefer and am used to.

28ga_pattern.jpg

The purple oval is where I put the bead, standing at 21 yards. I mounted and once the bead settled in the middle of that oval I pulled the trigger.
 
I'm no expert when it comes to shotguns and sighting them. However I've shot more shotguns than rifles and pistols combined for a lot longer. Not knowing what you look like when you mount the gun, I'd say that you are mounting it low, are seeing the rib and the bead and are shooting over your target. However, if all you see is the bead, then there is a rib problem and it is causing you to shoot high. I wish I knew what you could do to remedy this issue. It almost seems as if this is a trap gun since someone I know who was having this same issue with skeet was shooting a trap gun. Every shot of his went high and right over the clays. Are you welding your chin to the stock and getting a proper sight picture? There might be a way to adjust the stock to make this work better for you, but it appears that the barrel and rib are not in the proper alignment. That's my best "guess" speaking from experience. What to do however is a bit out of my league. :(

Vince
 
First off, I like the pattern. Allows for a bit of cushion for wind catching a target, or erratic flight of live birds. I understand you are not used to this.

Number of things come to mind. Gun fit on this gun compared to SKB, the choke itself, and how this gun patterns other loads, factory loads.

Quite a few trap shooters, use a trap gun that does shoot higher for everything, including skeet, hunting , general purpose. Just one has to get used to the gun, and POA/POI.

Gun specs are going to differ, I'd take a good look on how you mount and the guns fits between the two. Do you shoot pre-mount, or low gun?

I'd get a box of factory loads, both guns, and at 21 yards, from low gun, fire two shots.
Just focus on the dot on the pattern paper, mount gun to face and shoot two.
Sometimes if one walks up, like they would bird hunting, stop at the same line, and mount gun to face, and shoot two - reveals some things that just standing with intent of shooting for a pattern does not.

Using the factory loads, with both guns, will give a baseline.
Then repeat with your factory loads. Some guns like some loadings better than others.

I am assuming this Browning has screw in chokes. Browning chokes are good chokes - (some other brand chokes had some problems not being concentric, which will throw off POA/POI) - that said, chokes are like barrels, they have preferences on loads. So you could put in another choke (Skeet, IC , Mod, Full) and see what this gun does with them - not going to hurt to have this notated anyway.

For instance, with factory Rem chokes, I have shot the same gun, using 3 different IC chokes, and gotten 3 different POA/POIs , not concentric. Using an after market choke - got the POA/POI like this person wanted it.

I doubt the Browning choke is off...still with a baseline, if you have another choke or had friends with same guns and tried their chokes, that would alleviate that variable.
Heck shoot their guns if like yours...might be little detail in specs, fit, something.

Nice gun, nice gauge! Just remember, there is difference in how one mounts and shoots between platforms. Even if these guns fits, shoot POA/POI - changing from one to another, can - and will affect where the shot goes compared to where pointing.

A number of folks got to shooting gas guns in 12 ga, then transitioned to O/U for 20, 28 and .410 using barrel sets. Going from a repeater, to a O/U gave them fits. The guns fit, the pattern board revealed the guns shot as they were supposed to, just the shooter was changing platforms.

This is why a lot of folks went to shooting the 20 ga in 12 ga events. They stayed with the O/U platform , using 20, 28, .410 with the 3 barrel sets. Heck quite a few shot 28gauge, for the first three events, and then had to change barrels for the .410 event.

Why Tube sets are used so much. Use the same gun for everything, just change tubes, gauges for events.

In the old days,and folks still do, they had 4 guns, alike, in all 4 gauges. 1100s, and 870s for example. 1300s were made in 28 and .410 back then, and of course Model 12 for first three events, model 42 in .410 for the fourth event.


Just like we our shoes fit us, there is a difference in our tennis shoes, dress shoes, boots...
Shoes make a difference. I suggest folks shoot in the same shoes, when shooting skeet for scores. I prefer a bit of forward lift.

One can shoot the same gun, same load, shoot the same pattern board, at the same distance.
Wear 3 different kind of footwear - and get different POA/POIs

I'm serious. Put on some flat shoes like boat shoes, shoot, try on your tennis shoes with forward lift, shoot, and then try boots ( folks should shoot in hunting boots to know and be familiar anyway) or just tape cardboard on the bottom of these forward lift to give more lift and shoot.

Our body positioning changes. Footwear can, and does affect the total body posture, how muscles, skeletal and everything lines up. If we do not "line up" the same way each time, the gun is to "fit different" each time.
I have folks do as I did, wear the same shoes they shoot in - to do repetitions of mounting gun to face.
Ingraining these correct basic fundamentals are important, so doing 25 or more each night, correctly, with the same shoes, and all one shoots in, get all this muscle memory, human computer and all trained right. Once we get it, and we keep practicing it - we are better at letting the human computer do for us, in adapting to changes. We just have to get all this programmed correctly first.

Many folks get to where they are more erect when they shoot, lessens muscle tensions, lessens fatigue. We have all seen Skeet shooters "scrunched" and "contorted" when they shoot. Fine, if that is what they want to do, just puts more stress on the body, and they start out fine and strong, and about the 3 rd box start missing birds.

I stand erect, some say more than some trap shooters do. Trap shooters are shooting a different presentation, still many trap shooters shoot skeet, 5 stand, sporting clays, hunt...and they are one with the gun...it shoots a bit higher, but they know this, and use it to their advantage.

I prefer a field gun, that shoots for me a bit high. I am wanting to shoot "real world" like live game, or any defensive training. I was not taught to shoot program birds. Never. So the way I was taught, and how my Mentors shot just a natural , more erect stance with gun fit, pattern board checked out, and shoot. Did not matter if a skeet target or not. Machines were were not always regulated, and I was not advised if throwing , high or low.
I didn't call for bird either - they pulled, I shot. Just like real world. From low gun.

Take my gun and add tape something to comb or add moleskin. Sometimes a lot. Now I did not get to pattern my gun, and I did not know what the heck kind of load I had. I was not allowed to pattern gun.
"Shoot two, always shoot two" . This made sure safety was off, and I was to pay attention to the "pattern" at the grass or whatever background. Just pick a weed, bare spot, flower and shoot two.
Now...they they would toss a target, I did not call for, and who knows how the machines were set to throw.
I would have to read the breaks on the targets and "just shoot the durn gun, focus on target, still just shoot the durn gun"

I started young with correct basic fundamentals, gun fit, pattern boards ( stationary and moving pattern boards) and repetitions every night, wearing shoes and gear I shot in for scores.
Mentors then "gonna step this up a notch, and keep stepping it up"

Yeah well they could told me that danged old trap stock was sporting a full choke trap barrel , instead of the IC barrel ...it did seem a bit longer than a 26" IC, just they hurried this up and my brain said when shooting two " humm a bit tighter pattern there out yonder" and then they tossed targets real fast, just barely giving me time to load the gun, as I moved station to station.
Fifty shots, I did not get off station 8 the first time good " get your butt on Station 1, gonna do it again".
"You missed 4 birds, not bad, just not good enough...gotta practice more if you want it, and want it bad". 46/50 with a full choke trap gun...:p

Now get me out on field shooting for scores, with my loads that shot POA/POI, with my gun that fit, with the regulated targets - piece of cake.
Rain, wind, snow, sleet, hot humid south, even a tornado...all this paid off. Fair weather shooters on the porch , I was shooting, and it made no difference what the weather was doing to birds..."If you see 'em - you can fell 'em"

"We want you young' un -where just hand you a gun, some ammo and just shoot the durn thing".

I am so very grateful for these Mentors - I miss 'em, and they were so right!


Pattern boards - are sitting still. One shoots different when the birds are flying, adrenalin flowing , and everything else in how they mount and shoot.

Even the same gun five years later may change on someone. Body changes, weight loss/ gain , even just age, with muscle, tissue, fat, bone structure. The gun that fit, and shot POA/POI - may need tweaking just because of age.

Art & Science.

Some of this was for the new shooters...
 
Last edited:
Choke problems

I have seen so many crooked choke holes in factory barrels that I cannot recommend ANY manufacturer for being at least somewhat fair in proper installation.
The first problem barrel that brought this rudely to my attention was a high quality replacement barrel for the owner to shoot steel shot, and save his vintage barrel from the steel shot pounding. That barrel shot 11" high at 19 yards. He was shooting totally over the game for a long time, and doubted himself before doubting the maker of the barrel.
I had one customer send in his pair of top brand doubles to be checked since he was unsatisfied in the performance.
The 28 ga. O/U shot one barrel to the left, and the other to the right. Both barrels would hit almost a foot apart at 40 yards.
No amount of mounting technique change, or different more visible beads, or anything else will be a proper response to a crooked choke hole, much less a pair of mismatches like I just mentioned.
I have also seen tubes that were manufactured in an improper manner and have alignment problems in the removable choke. The barrel hole being crooked will make any tube's performance less than stellar, and perfect tubes in a crooked hole are not a cure.
Some guns have stock shims to alter the "angle of the dangle" so your face will be in a different position, so the pointing will be changed to effect a pattern impact change.
If I took my car to a mechanic because the steering wheel and front end wouldn't drive straight, I don't expect him to move my seat to the side to change the appearance of the wheel, or just pull the steering wheel off of the shaft and rotate it's position. If a car needs a front end alignment, fix the alignment.
I have talked to many shooters to educate them of this fact of crooked threaded holes in shotgun barrels. I have heard many excuses why they might not want to pay to have a new barrel cut off and re-choked with a straight hole. The factory should warrant that, right? If the factory was so good, why do you have a crooked choke in the barrel in the first place?
You should expect one of two things: the factory says that the error is within THEIR manufacturing tolerances, or you will be given an exchange barrel that shoots off in a different direction and/or amount. Since most people don't check, the factories get away with crooked holes. Mass production, cost saving, low bidder, name your poison.
If I cut off a bad choke hole, and install a straight, aligned hole, I cannot always guarantee that the gun will hit dead straight. I did not install the rib (figure the slant and alignment), but have a much greater chance of making satisfactory performance by DELIBERATELY installing a hole in line with the bore, than anybody installing a hole and deliberately NOT CARING.
The improper design of tooling makes me never want to install any aftermarket choke tubes of ANY BRAND. If a FACTORY type threaded hole will not safely fit into a barrel, I install my own custom choke tubes. Nobody shall ever accuse ME of installing an aftermarket choke tube improperly, since I have never possessed the tooling.
I will always make the choke tubes to fit the individual barrel after the hole is installed. Mass production cannot make a good fit, especially since there is such a wide variance of bore diameters in each gauge.
Anyone that sells tubes that are "bore matched" without seeing that they clear the barrel crookedness factor, is playing with fire. Close fit can only work with close alignment.

You can see the error of some choke holes in the pictures from one of my articles, attached.

[email protected]
shotgun and choke specialist
 

Attachments

  • 9a. Article 2, pg. 2.JPG
    9a. Article 2, pg. 2.JPG
    135.3 KB · Views: 57
SM,
Here are some more details regarding what you were talking about. My pattern was shot with an IC choke as it's the most open of the three that came with my gun. At first I was thinking about ordering a skeet I choke for it, but seeing how nice my breaks are at skeet with IC I think I'll just stick to it. I am just now starting to shoot reloads, before this I bought 28ga AAHS so I can re use the hulls, but I'm using up my supply of STS's before setting up my sizemaster for the new hulls. I had a real hard time at Sporting Clays with this gun until at the last half of the round I figured out I was shooting under it, I'm used to swinging through the target and having the gun moving directly in front of the target, not underneath it. I always start from low gun when patterning. I bring the gun up smoothly, not rushed and shoot at the POA as if it's a straightaway flying clay, not a stationary target. So in that sense it's not as fast as if a covey of quail exploded or in sporting clays when I start from low gun, but not too slow or deliberate. As far as the pump being radically different from my O/U, it's true that the stock is 1/2" shorter, and my O/U has an adjustable comb, but I am also used to shooting an 1100 with a stock that is very, very similar to the BPS in most respects.

I'm trying to remember if there's anything else I need to address...

I guess there's always the possibility that I could just learn to get along with a high shooting gun. Once I got used to shooting a foot under all skeet shots I did okay.


OH!
Just for kicks just now I assumed a shooting stance and threw the gun up with my eyes closed. I can't believe I didn't notice before how much rib I'm seeing! Well, that just might be the big problem there. For comparison I did the same with some of my other shotguns I shoot well with, an 1100 and my O/U and noticed that I'm seeing no rib. On this BPS I really have to smoosh my head down to get a proper sight picture, and that sure doesn't happen when shooting umounted. I shot mounted on skeet the other day and did a lot better than unmounted. I really prefer unmounted for SC so it looks like a little stock modding may be in order.
 
thoughts...

I believe you pattern is just about right. It seems to be high and just a little right. If you are right handed, shorten your butt pad. Take about a 3/8 or 1/2 inch or so out of it, change it to a thinner one or go to a solid butt plate if it is already a thin one. If your gun stock is just a little long, you push your shots (just like golf). Therefore your shots are high and right. If your a lefty, increase your pad.

I found that with my barrel body and short arms, I need a very short stock for a 6' guy. Easiest way to do this is to get a thinner recoil pad. Pachmayr Deecalortor pads are my favorite. I bet your missing right to lefts, as your lead is not as much as you thought with the string not getting to where you want it.
 
axeman_g, interesting thoughts. I am a lefty, and my gun doesn't have a recoil pad on it. This stock has a LOP of 14" instead of the 14.5" on my O/U, I kinda prefer a 14.5" LOP, but it doesn't feel uncomfortable at all.
 
theCZ,
Well then you and I have the same issue. I am a lefty also so along with the problems of being devistatingly handsome, unmeasurably brilliant and pleasantly charming we have to deal with shotgun manufs that refuse to accept that demi gods (as we are) exist. I'll bet there has been an Ithaca 37 in your closest before that BPS.

I would be willing to bet that if you put a 3/8 pad on that gun, you will be smoking clays all day. Get a good one, make sure it has rounded edges for easier mounting. I bet Pachmayr has one already sized for your 28g BPS. Plus, your recoil will be more pellet gun then 22 wmr.
 
This Thread is Great & Fun!

theCZ, thanks for posting this thread. Everyone, thank you as well.

Okay - I forgot to mention the closing of eyes, doing 3 three mounts to face, and then opening eyes.
Human computer, with its eye:hand coordination, wants to "compensate".

Pass shooter ( swing thru) - Great, me too , from low gun.

LOP : While one can shoot a shorter LOP, it does sound you need a bit longer LOP as your others guns are longer LOP and these sound like they fit you.
I only use one Recoil Pad, always have if I change one out.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/
http://www.lymanproducts.com/pachmayr/index.htm
http://www.lymanproducts.com/pachmayr/index.htm


Pachmayr Decelerator (D752B is a great one!) . http://www.lymanproducts.com/pachmayr/index.htm
Just read the Pach Decel for information.
You don't need the thick one ( I cannot recall when someone actually needed one)

Take note of the spacers, and all too. It has been common to use those spacers, to make a shim between receiver and stock to tweak fit, . We have sanded down one side more than the other to tweak cant ( on or off) and Pitch (neg - positive) b/t buttstock and recoil pad.

Now in your shooting - you sound on the right track to me. IF...IF you get accustomed to a tad higher gun, you may find being more erect in stance as I shared earlier, you will not tire as easily.
Here is the kicker(s) too, you move faster therefore respond faster - less wasted body motion to do what needs doing.
One can shoot "going up" better that "going down" on a target. That added bit of higher POA can be a blessing when the wind the wind catches a target ( erratic flight of bird).
"Seeing more" sometimes gives one the ability to "read more" downrange.

Sporting clays, being able to have better perception of getting a target b/t trees, or whatever background.

Tweak the fit with the Pach Decel, get the patterns checked out with loads...
kudu and some others are more up to date on reloading than I am I have sorta taken a temporary retirement from reloading.

Even if all this tweaking, getting it better - or same as the other guns...just don't rule out, or be upset if it is a bit higher still.
Get to know it, and use to YOUR advantage.

WE know, by never letting the muzzle ( we don't really see) get over a target, we will never shoot over a bird.
If we only focus on leading most edge, and keep swinging - we will never shoot behind a bird.

We can use a gun that shoots a tad higher to our advantage, we cannot use one that shoots too low effectively, that is when we shoot over the bird, and have to raise comb with a Pach Cheek Pad or Dr.Scholls Moleskin pad.

Steve
 
I fiddle with EVERY one of my shotguns until I get a pattern like that. Once you shoot that gun a while and go back to another gun where you have to cover the target to hit it you probably will too. There just isn't any substitute for being able to see what you are shooting at WHILE you are shooting at it!!!!
 
HSMITH wrote:
I fiddle with EVERY one of my shotguns until I get a pattern like that. Once you shoot that gun a while and go back to another gun where you have to cover the target to hit it you probably will too. There just isn't any substitute for being able to see what you are shooting at WHILE you are shooting at it!!!!

Yep.

:)
 
Kirby, cool thumbnails! :)
I want to know more! :)
You got a website?
Got any suggested reading ...for starters? :)

At this time only got two "worthwhile" books on shotguns... Bob Brister's and Ralph Walker's.

Alvin in AZ
 
knowledge base

I was provided an opening to try my hand at writing around June of '03, and decided that I would not try to make conventional and repetitive details any part of my articles. How many magazines can print articles from pablum-pukers about the 30/06 being the all-around caliber, or the 30/30 being surprisingly resilient for being over a hunderd! years old. GARSH.
I don't write for beginners only, but don't leave out the explanatory details or comparisons that make the gist understandable to almost everybody.

I have written a total of 31 original (and one revised) articles in print, so far, counting the issue that comes out January.

If you want to see the e-versions of the latest 3, go to the website of the magazine, Adventure Sports Outdoors. For all the really avid sportsmen, you can subscribe for $16.95 for 12 issues, I mean BIG issues. Boating, fishing, hunting, dogs, all kinds of stuff.

www.asomagazine.com

Click on the top right corner to go to the page of recent issue covers.
Click on the month to see the list of pages, then click on the page that you want (come as pdf so you can save a copy)

November is pages 42 and 43

September and October is 32 and 33 for both issues

The Dec. article missed due to early closing for their holiday trip, but see it after the first, on what page, I have no idea, so go to the number 6 page to see the article list.

If you thought the thumbnail pic was OK, here is the text of the article.

[email protected]
 

Attachments

  • 9. Article 2, pg. 1.JPG
    9. Article 2, pg. 1.JPG
    203.6 KB · Views: 12
Kirby, what about books on the subject of shotgun barrells and chokes?
Got any recommendations on any of those?

I'm trying to make the best sow's ear purse I can out of an old JCHiggins Model 20. :) My plan is to get it shootin the best it can then the rest is up to me and my game-finding abilities. :)

Bet on the dumb-game if anyone is offering odds. :/

But my lack of success won't be because my gun ain't shootin where I point it (like in that article) or the lock time is slow as molasses in January or the pattern ain't right etc. :)

Alvin in AZ (live to tinker)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top