Help me decide how to build up my Quigley rifle...

[tetchaje1]

OK. I visited my local gunsmith the other day and he had built up a .45-60 BPCP rifle that I just about fell over looking at because it was so nice. Now I want him to build one up for me, but I am new to the Quigley scene. I want a single shot rifle chambered in .45-70 that will have enough stregnth to handle Category III ammunition. My thoughts are as follows:

Falling block action: maybe a Falling Block Works or a Ruger No.1. Other ideas would be welcome here since I am not familiar with all of the different falling block manufacturers. I want a classic look. Color-case hardening is a bonus, though a nice bluing job will suffice.

Vernier-type tang mounted flip-up rear sight: Which is the best manufacturer?

Schnabel forend on the front grip, and a crescent butt-plate.

28" air-gauged heavy barrel, either 1/2-1/2 octagon, round or full octagon. I'll most likely go with the 1/2-1/2, since that was what I saw and really liked at my gunsmith's shop.

What kind of front sight? The one at the shop had a hooded-front sight with an integral level.

I'd like to do some of the stock work myself since I love woodworking. I'd really like a nicely figured walnut. Where do I get stock blanks?

As you can tell, I'm really new to this stuff. Any suggestions are welcome!

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jim Watson]

I didn't know Falling Block Works was still in business, though I read that some of their actions had turned up out of somebody's inventory a while back. Ruger No 1 has a tang safety right where a tang sight would go. There have been target rifles made with the safety deleted... but you would be limited in application, hammerless rifles are not allowed in BPCR Silhouette, for example. And it is not of period style or construction.

I shoot a Winchester. Ballard, confusingly enough, makes a repro Highwall and will sell actions. Get the one in 4140 steel for heavy loads.
http://www.ballardrifles.com/index.htm

Shiloh says their '74 Sharps is up to Ruger level loads.
Don't know if they will sell an action for your guy to finish out, though.
http://www.shilohrifle.com

Doug Turnbull is the best known for color case hardening and Carbona blue, though there are getting to be some others.
http://turnbullrestoration.com/

The most common vernier tang sights I see at silhouette matches are MVA, Kelley, and Baldwin. Ron Heilman has a good following on the Shiloh board.
http://www.montanavintagearms.com/

Schnable foreends are common, standard on highwall, but a crescent buttplate will eat you up with full power loads. I got a shotgun butt for my little .38-55 last winter and it is a great improvement.

28" is pretty short for a barrel, ok on a hunting rifle. Target rifles start at 30" and go to 34". The longer the barrel, the longer the sight radius and the better the aim, but more length to accumulate fouling. What is your application? Badger barrels are pretty much standard in BPCR, with a number of Green Mountain and some Kreigers, probably others here and there.

What is your application? A globe sight is practically essential for target shooting, a spirit level is needed for anything much over 200 yards. But they are pretty dark for a hunting rifle, a blade might do you better. Lots of the guys solder half a silver dime into a front sight base. One minted the year you were born is a good style point.

Treebone Carving is a good source for stock wood.
http://www.treebonecarving.com/

Buffalo Arms has a lot of good stuff, including several of the brands I mention above.
http://www.buffaloarms.com

Discussions at the Shiloh board, other brands accepted to talk about.
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

 

[Chuck R.]

tetchaje1,

IF you want a true “Quigley” Rifle then it’s GOT to be a Sharps 74, like a #3 or a Long Range Express and it’s GOT to be in 45- 2 7/8” or 45-110 with a 34” barrel. The folks at Shiloh even sell a Quigley Model, complete with patch box and military butt and your Initials on the receiver.

BTW I concur fully with Jim, skip the military buttstock. They look cool, but are no fun to shoot, the shotgun butt is way more comfortable. Also on most models the military stock is thinner along the comb, and they have quite a bit of drop to them. This gets to be important when you’re cranking in the elevation and trying to maintain a good cheek weld.

I’ve got a Shiloh #1 with a 32” barrel in 45-2.6” (45-100) that’s a real nice rifle. Shiloh IMHO builds one of the nicest BPCRs made and are very reasonable. Since I started shooting more and more silhouette matches and less Buffalo and 800,900, and 1000 yard matches, the Shiloh sits in the safe. I’ve got two Ballard High-Halls, and one of their Low-Walls in .22 that I shoot all the time. The High-Wall action is just plain faster, which is important when waiting out conditions under the clock, and it’s a better off-hand rifle IMHO.

As for sights, either MVA’s or Baldwins, those are the models I see most often at matches. I’ve got MVA’s on all 4 of my rifles. Parts Unknown also makes a pretty good sight, and they're cheaper. For distance, the hooded front with spirit level is a necessity as rifle cant will kill you. Also, I have a Windguage MVA front on my 45-100 and 45-90 as sometimes the wind drift at the greater distances can overwhelm the adjustment in your rear sight. It’s nice to be able to put 15 or 20 points up front and fine tune with the rear.

All of my rifles have straight octagon barrels and double set triggers. Don't know why, but to me it seems that BPCRs should be that way.

One option is a CPA Stevens 44 ½. They sell semi complete rifles with unfinished partially fitted wood. This way you can save some cash and you won’t have to pay the FET since it’s not a finished rifle.

As far as the category III ammo, that’s up to you. Most of the BPCR rifles won’t be warranted for it, and you could damage the gun and yourself. To tell you the truth, I wouldn’t worry about it. A 45-70 (or larger) loaded with either BP or to BP velocities will do pretty much what ever you need to do.

Be careful, once you start down this road these things are very addictive.

Chuck

 

[tetchaje1]

Hmm. Thanks for all of the information guys. OK, I'll ditch the crescent buttstock and I think I'll go ahead and go for the 34" barrel.

Is there any functional difference between the all-octagon and 1/2-1/2 barrels in performance?

I've looked at a couple of hi-walls and they are pretty nice, as well. I forgot to mention them when asking about actions above.

Falling Block Works is no longer in business, but I have seen a few of them floating around here and there. One went on Gunbroker the other day for a mite over $300. My gunsmith has one in his shop that he is currently building up and he said the fellow who owns is paid $150 for the action at a gunshow. Heck, if I can find an action for that much, I'd jump on it. I really want a tang-mounted sight, so I suppose the Ruger No.1 is out. Also, while being a beautiful action in its own right, doesn't have as classic a look as the Hi-walls and other falling block receivers.

What is the difference between a "Hi-Wall" and a "Low-Wall" anyway?

Thanks again.

 

[tetchaje1]

Lots of the guys solder half a silver dime into a front sight base. One minted the year you were born is a good style point.

That sounds really neat, but I was born after the age of silver coins! I'm pretty sure the gummint was using the standard pot-metal by 1977. I guess I am a young pup to be looking into BPCRs...

(I do have some silver Mercury dimes from a coin collection that I had when I was a kid...maybe I'll try to find one that was minted in 1885 or something like that. )

 

[Gewehr98]

Still curious why the desire to run Category III ammo in a Quigley gun.

If you want to move a heavy lead bullet faster than Trapdoor speeds in a Quigley rifle, then go with .45-90, .45-110 or .45-120. Stay with blackpowder, or use a blackpowder substitute, to keep the pressures down.

My bastardized Rolling Block Creedmoor is chambered for .45-70, and uses Axtell sights. I run blackpowder loads, with a pinch of smokeless on top of the primer before the Goex FFg goes down the drop tube into the case. I can shoot all day without BP fouling causing me problems.

 

[jason10mm]

I have the Pedersoli Quigley and love it. I haven't shot it much, but I already know that a metal cresent butt-plate HURTS! I'm looking into making a leather cuff, probably with some cartridge loops. I'm not sure what "level" the Pedersoli is rated for, but the cowboy loads are plenty accurate for starters.

 

[DnPRK]

Here's another vote for the shotgun buttplate. A crescent is too painfull to shoot without substantial padding. All my 45-70s wear Soule-type sights with Hadley eyecups, except for the Highwall (I've got the sight but need a longer screw to mount it).

 

[Chuck R.]

tetchaje1


I’ve read quite a bit about Round Vs Oct, Vs ½ barrels and can’t determine were anybody thinks that one is superior over the other. Ernie Stallman at Badger Barrels just so happens to call the idea that round shoots better than octagon a “myth”. Since his company makes a whole lot of barrels for BPCRs, I’d think he knows what he’s talking about.

A Low-Wall has portions of the receiver cut away to make the loading and unloading of smaller cartridges easier. Mine’s a LW Special Sporting I had made to replicate my silhouette rifle. Complete with double set triggers and Helm lever. It’s probably my favorite rifle, no casting, no loading, no extensive cleaning.

For a competition gun, Soules and a Hadley eye cup are the way to go. Most of the non-Soule rear tangs only have about 14 pts of windage, and it won't gut it past the Turkeys some days.

Chuck

 

[Jim Watson]

Tetchy,

What are you going to DO with this thing?
It is going to be rather expensive, even if you do your own stocking, and you should have an idea of the application before you start in on it. Some of those "features" matter, and a movie prop may not be what the paying customer needs.

The half octagon barrel has been accused of having bore distortion due to uneven stress release at the transition. But I have seen a lot of them shooting darned well and figure it would only apply to a barrel cheaply made in the first place.

On the other hand, the Sharps Rifle Company was the outfit that declared round barrels superior to octagon, just as they declared .45 calibers superior to .40, .44, and .50 and would, in their last years, make them only upon special order. What did they know? The company folded in 1881.

But Shiloh will make you a Creedmoor with a full round barrel. I like it.

I like Winchesters even better (They never called the 1885 Single Shots "Highwall" or "Low-wall" that is a collector's term.) And if I bought a new one, it would have a round barrel. For one reason, I shoot BPCR Silhouette and think a round barrel would ride in the cross-sticks better. The octagon kind of jerks and skips around as I shift targets.

 

[tetchaje1]

Jim Watson,
This rifle would be for target shooting. I hadn't thought about using it for BPCR shooting since I was originally intent on getting one that could shoot modern off the shelf 45-70 ammo, but I am suddenly intrigued by the prospect of it all.

I would never lug this thing around in the woods, that's for sure. I've got my Sauers for that.

 

[redneck2]

If I knew how to post pictures here, I'd take one of my Browning .45-110 (.45-2.6 Sharps) BPCR. Tang sight, I/2 octagon & 1/2 round Badger barrel. Falling block. I think it's exactly what you want in a factory gun. Plenty accurate as they were made for competition. If you could find one, it would be maybe 1/4th of what you're gonna end up spending on a custom gun.

I called Browning and was told that the barrel will run up to 300 WM pressures as it's made from the same steel as other modern single shots. If you did load it up, it would be identical to a .458 Win Mag. Not much fun at the bench.

Dealer had ordered mine for a customer that didn't buy it, so I got it at dealer cost maybe 7-8 years ago. They were a short run and only made for a few years IIRC. Look on one of the gun auction sites and you can find them.

If you want to see it, I can take a digital and e-mail

 

[tetchaje1]

Sure, that'd be neat. You can send to my e-mail at:
[email protected]

My 'smith would charge $125 to fit the barrel to an action that is supplied by myself and do all of the bluing. Seemed like a pretty fair price to me. Add a couple hundred bucks for a receiver, a couple hundred for a barrel (??? how much do these run?), about $400-500 for a nicely figured stock from the wood guy linked above, a few hundred for a nice tang-mounted sight...hmmm...it looks like I'd be into it about $1250-$1400 when all is said and done for a custom job. I'm sure there are some costs that I am missing, so we'll say $1500.

How much does a Browning cost?

 

[moredes]

Something I haven't seen mentioned--if you get into competitions with a 45-70, your rifle's weight could be an issue.

I don't have any plans to compete with mine (an 1875 CSharps), but I really liked the cartridge's versatility (I already had a BFR 45-70), and had a yearning for a Sharps. I didn't know squat about 1874's and '75's, barrel lengths, competition rules, etc. When I bought my CSharps, a prospective seller was gracious enough to caution me that my purchase would have to be made in consideration of weight rules if I wanted to compete--he said a 34" would be too heavy and wouldn't pass. Some 32" tiptoe up to the weight cutoff.

It might be something you need to consider.

 

[redneck2]

If you want a "for sure" price, try the BPCR website http://www.bpcr.net Those guys are heavy duty into it.

Any time I looked at any custom gun, it was a bigger $$$ difference than that . Even the modern Sharps ones run maybe $850 on the low end to over $2,500 and these are semi-production guns.

My Browning was around 1k IIRC. You'd have to check out an auction site to see the going rate. If you can get exactly what you want to $1,200, go for it