Help me decide... Sig P365 versus Springfield Armory Hellcat

[Smaug]

If you’re looking for opinions they abound. If you want to buy the right one, rent them all. That’s ALL, not just the ones everyone else is running to buy. What matters are reliability and how YOU shoot it.

Rental guns are abused; they're not a good reference point for reliability.

For example, the last two guns I rented:

• Ruger SR22 - Wouldn't extract reliably. I think enough noobs let the slide slam shut on a round already in the chamber that it chipped up the extractor.
• S&W Shield EZ 9 mm - was inaccurate. As I was packing up, I noticed the rear sight was loose in its dovetail. However, I was able to confirm though that the grip safety would not work for my wife (weak grip & too far down), but it does shoot soft and is easy enough to rack the slide.

Revolvers often need to be cleaned more to shoot reliably, but the rental ones often are gunked up under the extractor star.

Shops that rent guns should have a gunsmith go through them every month or so as a part of a service package.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Reliability is nearing foregone conclusion with modern firearms coming from major manufacturers......

I have to disagree with that. The Sig P365 is one of the top five best selling concealed carry pistols today. Yet for a number of people it was extremely difficult to impossible to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity simply because the stripper rail finish was rough. That is more than a break-in issue.

Likewise there were numerous reports of return to battery problems with new P365s. Again, it was is a rough internal finish issue that caused the reliability problem.

Screw ergonomics,..........

But when there are so many reasonable choices available why ignore ergonomics? Not to mention the readily available aftermarket handgrip modules and grip sleeves that might cure the ergonomic issues.

It was actually painful in my hands when I gripped my P365 tightly, because of the sharp corners that Sig designed into the grip module. A little bit of sanding of the grip module to round the corners made it comfortable my hands. Why walk around with a sliver in your toe when you can just pull it out?

When you are choosing a pistol you not only need to consider the pistol as is, but also consider whether or not you can make it do what you want it to do.

It's no different than buying a new car. Some people are happy to keep their car bone stock as it was when they drove it off of the car lot. But other people want better performance and will immediately upgrade the tires and suspension, install better seats, and install a new audio system.

A new shooter is not likely going to know what they will prefer until they are shooting for a while. My original plan was to carry with a 12 rd magazine in my P365 and carry a 15 rd magazine as backup. But I hated the feel of the 15 rd magazine in the P365. I also realized that with a 15 rd magazine in my P365 it would not fit into my my holster setup. So I sold the 15 rd magazines.

I also discovered that the 12 rd magazine pinched my hand and made the P365 feel squishy in my hand. Then I discovered that the P365XL grip module would fit my P365 and I bought one immediately. It was a huge improvement.

MagGuts released the +2 round magazine spring kit for the XL grip module. I did some testing that confirmed that it was likely to be as reliable, if not more reliable than the stock Sig magazine. I now carry with 14 rounds in the Sig 12 rd magazine my P365X.

I did a lot of research before I bought my P365. For me the P365 was a simple choice. Most of the other major brands had a deal breaker of some kind or another and the P365 checked all of the boxes. But it wasn't without some of it's own warts and pimples. Most of the issues that I had with my P365 were very easy to remedy. In the process of dealing with these issues it also helped me to better understand the internal functions of my P365.

But it could have gone with other way with issues that were insurmountable. I think that I got lucky in that I still like my P365 even after the issues that I've dealt with. It I were to do it over I would have bought a P365XL, but they were nearly impossible to obtain at the time, and I wasn't quite sure if I would be able to carry with the extra length of the P365XL. I can't really say that I have any buyer's remorse. I want both a P365 and a P365XL.

 

[unclenunzie]

I have copies of both, Hellcats and P365 models. I currently carry my Hellcat because I have about 2 cases of ammo through that platform, less in the P365, so I have a lot of trigger time invested. If I were starting from scratch I'd probably go with the P365 models for the modularity, after market support, parts availability direct from sig, and at this point it is a very proven platform.

 

[Skylerbone]

I have to disagree with that. The Sig P365 is one of the top five best selling concealed carry pistols today. Yet for a number of people it was extremely difficult to impossible to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity simply because the stripper rail finish was rough. That is more than a break-in issue.

Likewise there were numerous reports of return to battery problems with new P365s. Again, it was is a rough internal finish issue that caused the reliability problem.



But when there are so many reasonable choices available why ignore ergonomics? Not to mention the readily available aftermarket handgrip modules and grip sleeves that might cure the ergonomic issues.

It was actually painful in my hands when I gripped my P365 tightly, because of the sharp corners that Sig designed into the grip module. A little bit of sanding of the grip module to round the corners made it comfortable my hands. Why walk around with a sliver in your toe when you can just pull it out?

When you are choosing a pistol you not only need to consider the pistol as is, but also consider whether or not you can make it do what you want it to do.

It's no different than buying a new car. Some people are happy to keep their car bone stock as it was when they drove it off of the car lot. But other people want better performance and will immediately upgrade the tires and suspension, install better seats, and install a new audio system.

A new shooter is not likely going to know what they will prefer until they are shooting for a while. My original plan was to carry with a 12 rd magazine in my P365 and carry a 15 rd magazine as backup. But I hated the feel of the 15 rd magazine in the P365. I also realized that with a 15 rd magazine in my P365 it would not fit into my my holster setup. So I sold the 15 rd magazines.

I also discovered that the 12 rd magazine pinched my hand and made the P365 feel squishy in my hand. Then I discovered that the P365XL grip module would fit my P365 and I bought one immediately. It was a huge improvement.

MagGuts released the +2 round magazine spring kit for the XL grip module. I did some testing that confirmed that it was likely to be as reliable, if not more reliable than the stock Sig magazine. I now carry with 14 rounds in the Sig 12 rd magazine my P365X.

I did a lot of research before I bought my P365. For me the P365 was a simple choice. Most of the other major brands had a deal breaker of some kind or another and the P365 checked all of the boxes. But it wasn't without some of it's own warts and pimples. Most of the issues that I had with my P365 were very easy to remedy. In the process of dealing with these issues it also helped me to better understand the internal functions of my P365.

But it could have gone with other way with issues that were insurmountable. I think that I got lucky in that I still like my P365 even after the issues that I've dealt with. It I were to do it over I would have bought a P365XL, but they were nearly impossible to obtain at the time, and I wasn't quite sure if I would be able to carry with the extra length of the P365XL. I can't really say that I have any buyer's remorse. I want both a P365 and a P365XL.

But you’ve proven my point. What I wrote was about choosing, not about living with. Despite what you claim were reliability issues and despite causing you hand pain, you STILL bought it. I never said ignore, I said screw ergonomics in so far as choosing a firearm. Every military worldwide knows you can train anyone on a general platform.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Despite what you claim were reliability issues and despite causing you hand pain, you STILL bought it.

Nope. Before I bought my P365 I didn't know about the issues with the rough finish on the stripper rail making the slide difficult to retract over a magazine loaded to capacity or other rough finish problems causing return to battery malfunctions. I fixed these issues polishing the internal parts.

I also didn't know about the uncomfortable P365 handgrip module, as it came with 12 round magazines that are not as uncomfortable. It wasn't until I decided to try the P365 with the 10 round magazines that I noticed just how horrible it felt. I solved the handgrip discomfort by installing the MagGuts +2 rd magazine kit and modifying the baseplate and the handgrip module.

I didn't know about P365 12 rd magazine pinching issues until I was shooting it. I solved the 12 rd magazine pinching issues by switching to the XL handgrip module. The 12 rd XL magazines do not have the pinching problem.

I also did not realize just how unbalanced the stock P365 was when the magazine was low on ammo until I used it for a while. Someone online brought up the possibility of weighting the handgrip module. I tried weighting the grip module and it solved the problem.

I didn't fully realize the potential problem that the nearly flush magazine release button would pose until I had been using the P365 for a while. When someone mentioned that they had installed an extended magazine release button on their P365, I very quickly realized that I needed to rotate the P365 in my hand in order to actuate the magazine release button. And THAT is a liability in a self defense encounter. By extending the magazine release button to a more normal position, I could easily actuate the magazine release button WITHOUT needing to rotate the pistol in my hand. An extended magazine release button does not cure the issue with people with small hands. But it does give a larger handed person an advantage.

Sometimes you need to live with a product before it's deficiencies become apparent. It took me many months to figure this out. But now that I know, I could take care of all of these issues in a single evening. I would just consider it part of the pistol setup and maintenance. If I wasn't mechanically inclined and able to fix these problems myself, the P365 may not have been such a good choice for me.

 

[herrwalther]

The P365 has a lot of models out now. If you don't like the small and narrow grip of the original 365, try another. You might find one you like better.

Speaking for myself, I liked the Hellcat better when I test fired it compared to 3 P365 models. Both are good firearms from good companies so you aren't going to go wrong with either. You just have to find what you like best.

https://www.sigsauer.com/firearms/pistols/p365.html
https://www.springfield-armory.com/hellcat-series-handguns/hellcat-3-micro-compact-handguns/

 

[Skylerbone]

Nope. Before I bought my P365 I didn't know about the issues with the rough finish on the stripper rail making the slide difficult to retract over a magazine loaded to capacity or other rough finish problems causing return to battery malfunctions. I fixed these issues polishing the internal parts.

I also didn't know about the uncomfortable P365 handgrip module, as it came with 12 round magazines that are not as uncomfortable. It wasn't until I decided to try the P365 with the 10 round magazines that I noticed just how horrible it felt. I solved the handgrip discomfort by installing the MagGuts +2 rd magazine kit and modifying the baseplate and the handgrip module.

I didn't know about P365 12 rd magazine pinching issues until I was shooting it. I solved the 12 rd magazine pinching issues by switching to the XL handgrip module. The 12 rd XL magazines do not have the pinching problem.

I also did not realize just how unbalanced the stock P365 was when the magazine was low on ammo until I used it for a while. Someone online brought up the possibility of weighting the handgrip module. I tried weighting the grip module and it solved the problem.

I didn't fully realize the potential problem that the nearly flush magazine release button would pose until I had been using the P365 for a while. When someone mentioned that they had installed an extended magazine release button on their P365, I very quickly realized that I needed to rotate the P365 in my hand in order to actuate the magazine release button. And THAT is a liability in a self defense encounter. By extending the magazine release button to a more normal position, I could easily actuate the magazine release button WITHOUT needing to rotate the pistol in my hand. An extended magazine release button does not cure the issue with people with small hands. But it does give a larger handed person an advantage.

Sometimes you need to live with a product before it's deficiencies become apparent. It took me many months to figure this out. But now that I know, I could take care of all of these issues in a single evening. I would just consider it part of the pistol setup and maintenance. If I wasn't mechanically inclined and able to fix these problems myself, the P365 may not have been such a good choice for me.

This leaves me head scratching. Did you purchase it sight unseen with no exploration of all these “known issues” or ??? Did you not hold it before signing for it and clear the chamber as you should? It seems ergonomics weren’t first in your mind either.

I have big pistols and small pistols of various width, length, weight, chamberings, and the one thing they have in common is I shoot them well. I have sold a few I simply could not wring modest accuracy out of, be it my deficiencies or the pistols’. My 2XL hands do not change size or shape when swapping between them.

I don’t love my Kahr K9 for its ho hum appearance or the added weight it brings to the table. I don’t find it as comfortable as my modified 1911s. I truly do not love the rubber grip. I love it because I am as accurate with it as any pistol I own. It has never given me trouble cycling or firing. That’s why it protects me both day and night.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

This leaves me head scratching. Did you purchase it sight unseen with no exploration of all these “known issues” or ??? Did you not hold it before signing for it and clear the chamber as you should? It seems ergonomics weren’t first in your mind either.

I never shot my P365 before purchasing it. It took me almost 5 months to even find one available for sale because of supply issues. I did do a fair amount of research, but at the time the only issue that I was able to find was the striker failures of the early models. But it sounded like Sig had worked out all of the kinks of their new design.

I never held a P365 with a 10 round magazine. I only held a P365 with a 12 round magazine inserted and that felt okay. I bought the P365 Tac Pac that came with three 12 round magazines and a holster.

There was no issue retracting the slide with an empty magazine. You might chamber one round to carry plus 1 and then insert a magazine loaded to capacity. Or you might insert a magazine with the slide locked back and then release the slide to chamber a round. But you normally do NOT retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity, as there is no need to, UNLESS you have a dud and you need to quickly cycle the slide to chamber another round. It was by pure chance that I noticed that it was difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. As soon as I posted about this issue other people came forward and said they had the same problem. I'm willing to bet that many people have this issue and do not realize it. Either that or Sig had a QC issue that got by them.

When I discovered that Sig recommended recoil spring replacement after only 2,500 rounds I thought something was amiss. I started looking into the issue and I found more relevant firearms websites and discovered more problems, such as the round wire recoil spring coiling over itself and jamming with as little as 200 rounds fired. My solution was to use a flat coil ISMI recoil spring which appeared to be using a more reliable spring making process which had a recommended lifespan of 5,000 rounds and it would be virtually impossible for the flat spring to coil over itself like a round wire spring could.

I saw someone posting about the return to battery malfunctions. His backassward fix was to grind down the extractor return spring. I cringed knowing that wasn't the root cause of the problem. I set out to correctly diagnose the problem, which was caused by excessive friction because of roughness on the breechface, roughness on the left adjacent wall to the breechface, and roughness underneath the extractor claw. I polished those areas and now you CANNOT prevent the slide from returning to battery no matter how slowly you ease the slide closed.

I started shooting rifles and shotguns when I was 12. But I had never ever fired a pistol, nor did I think that I would ever need a pistol, until the 2020 mostly peaceful protests here in Murderapolis Minnesota.

I dry fired my pistol, practiced drawing, and field stripped my pistol until I could do it blindfolded while maintaining proper trigger finger discipline for a month before I went to the range and loaded my pistol for the 1st time. By the 4th magazine my grouping was 3-3/4" at 7 yards. This was my first time ever shooting a pistol. The P365 is more than accurate enough for my needs. Any accuracy deficiencies are likely caused by me. Although to be sure, at my next trip the range I will be sighting in my pistol with the ammunition that I am currently using to make sure the sights are true, as I have a tendency to shoot about an inch low at 7 yards.

As I discovered more potential problems I dealt with them one by one. It's two years later and I'm reasonably certain that my P365X will not malfunction unless I have defective ammunition. I have tailored my pistol to fit my hand perfectly. I have taken care of every potential problem that I have discovered, and I have also done much testing to ensure that my pistol will be reliable. I would bet money that my P365X will perform more reliably under adverse conditions than a stock P365 series pistol. The more that I learn about pistols the more that I believe that the P365 or P365XL are the right pistols for my needs.

 

[SharpDog]

Well, I don't have a Hellcat. I do have 8 p365 variants which replaced my 8 Sig p22x variants for all uses including EDC, range and HD. I have never had a problem with any of these pistols. Many rounds downrange in the last maybe 3 or so years. My EDC is a p365XL with 12 ready and one or two 15 rd reloads. I also use a p365 with the same configuration as a pocket gun:

 

[Cokeman]

Do you have a preference on the flat or curved triggers? Do you notice much of a difference?

 

[CNobbe]

Wow, Alllen Bundy, you definitely had a rough time with yours. Mine was fine out of the box and still runs flawlessly. Only thing with mine is with one in the chamber and a full 10 round magazine, one of the rounds in the magazine rattles a bit when walking or running. Not a big deal but just a nuisance.

Try smacking the back side of the mag on the floor, or something fairly sturdy. One of my 15 round mags rattled but a decent smack seems to cause enough force to help the round settle and not rattle. It's a pretty common nuisance with 365 mags, especially the 15 rounders.

 

[CNobbe]

View attachment 1106842

That is my favorite grip texture, way better than the stock 365 module and I kinda favor it over the Wilson.

I can't really say that I have any buyer's remorse. I want both a P365 and a P365XL.

Just buy an XL slide and barrel, no need for another pistol.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Just buy an XL slide and barrel, no need for another pistol.

I considered that, but it costs just about as much to buy the XL slide, barrel, and RSA as it does to just buy the XL. I also want a backup pistol in case I have problems with one of them.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I do have 8 p365 variants....

Have you tried shooting the flat trigger versus the curved trigger using a gloved finger? It appears that there is more room for a gloved finger with the curved trigger.