Help me figure out if this is a slam fire or bad loading. KABOOM!

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longdayjake

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Okay, so I bought a dealer sample M14 H&R. Paperwork and everything came in on Wednesday so we took it out to shoot it for the first time yesterday. We made it through EXACTLY 120 rounds of my own handloads when on the 120th round it went Kaboom. I was using some of the never fired pulled federal .308 brass and 147 grain ball pulled bullets. I think what may have happened was I was using the pulled brass which could have come from several different types of ammunition. Is it possible that the primer was a bench rest style primer and I got a slam fire? Or is it more likely that I didn't crimp them enough and the bullet got set back and created an overpressure issue? I've never loaded for a full auto before so I am just confused as to what may have happened. The bullet exited the barrel but the casing looks like it wasn't fully chambered. That said, I am not very experienced with Kabooms so I don't know what it might have been. Fortunately, it appears as though the damage was very minor. The bolt is broken and the stock is split a little but I can find no other damage to anything except an exploded magazine. Obviously I am a little embarrassed that it happened to me but I want to help others to not go through this. Let me know what you guys think. Oh, and BTW I am fine. The follower, spring, and base plate of the magazine smacked me on the foot but I was wearing good thick leather boots so it was just more of a shock than anything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g66EUwgC09s

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High pressure is my guess to split the stock that way. See 2 high pressure signs here in a AR15
th_VeryHighPressure.jpg
[/URL][/IMG] 1. Primer flow into the firing pin hole. 2. The brass flow into the ejector hole. Always hard to know why. Link to photo > http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/394487_Big_boom_______PICTURES_NOW______Page_2_.html&page=1
 
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I too thought maybe high pressure, but I am confused as to what may have caused it. The powder I was using was okay for the m14 and I could have completely filled the case with powder and it still should not have been more pressure than it could handle.
 
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Did you find all of the other 19 cases? I'm wondering if the 19th case pulled apart at the shoulder and the 20th slam-fired out of battery when it ran into the remnants.
 
Jake,

Looks to me like you had a slam fire with the cartridge going off before the bolt was completely closed. Could have been a high primer or a sensitive primer, or it could have been something related to your firing pin or bolt face. Glad you are OK.

Don
 
the way it split out the case head and primer pocket, bolt face, and stock.. I'd say out of battery detonation.

case web looks like it folded itself up into a belt??? So much looked like a belt that I had to double check that the m14 was a 7.62 nato, a non belted round.

something about that load got it stuck in the chamber.. dont know what that may have been... bolt rode it forward, then slam fire while it was pinned out of battery. weak part of the case gave out.. and kaboom.

How many times had you loaded that ammo.. reload? Also, is that case cut apart, or is the shoulder forward also missing?
 
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Just watched your video.. thats no slam fire. FA guns you'd never notice if there was a slam fire...

Slam fires turn Semi guns into FA guns.. they dont cause kabooms like that.

Firing out of battery in combination with a slamfire.. and you've got what that looks like.

I still think that case was wrong ammo loaded in themag.. folded like a belted magnum case.. would cause a hard stop when that belt tried to enter teh chamber.. which could cause aslam fire..
 
Tough one to diagnose Jake,

Don't know what you mean by pulled brass? Never heard that term.

Did you find the forward shoulder portion of the detonated case (from the photos, the case looks like it has seperated below the shoulder) in the chamber?

My 42 (before I had access to running the positive bolt lock) once chambered and fired a round with a ruptured case in the barrel.
It fired and brought out the ruptured section as well, but did not 'belt' the case head.
Running a .308 set-up in it later, I did have a quality surplus round detonate
similar to yours that caused the bolt rollers to break off all four of the outer locking points on the barrel extension.
I never did figure out just what caused it.

Both my 14 and FAL have separated cases in the past, but - luckily - have never fired the following round.

The only belted case I can think of that might even start to chamber would be a .240 Weatherby, and I figure you would know if you own one.

If you really found all the other 119 cases (for sure?), my best guess is just possibly (we are human) using the wrong powder for that one round,
a primer flash hole that had been punched or later drilled to a larger diameter, or a weak/improperly drawn/annealed case.

You may never know.
Based on what I have read and the photos showing the belt, I would lean toward bad luck with an out of battery ignition.

The stock can be epoxied, but the bolt missing the cartridge feed lug hurts.

I shoot a TRW, and would have sent you a bolt on this one.
But my house fire of 14 months ago pretty much took care of ALL of my rather formidable pile of spare parts,
including four spare bolts.

Sounds corny, but be grateful you made it with both eyes and the ten digits.
Ain't no gun I own worth my little finger.

Never cared to try the E2 stock, but that compensator really seems to work.
Any idea what a G. I . goes for?

Wish I had the answer for you, JT
 
That was an out of battery detonation certainly judging from the brass. If it were an overpressure load, you'd have had more damage than you do now too.

The "why" is tough to diagnose. Is there any possibility that the brass wasn't fully sized down to the base, preventing the round from fully chambering?
 
^^ I think that the above post is onto something. Even unfired pulled brass can be a problem. I always size/trim my brass prior to loading/reloading---even factory new. I have found some factory new cases that were overly large and would not fit in the chamber even after resizing with a standard die. A defective case that "looked" OK but overly large at the web could have been your problem IMHO. There are several reasons manufacturers/military sell ammo as components and require you to break it down before reselling.

Wow you are going to have to sell a bunch of bullets to recoup from this.:eek:;) Glad you are still in one piece despite everything.
 
Pulled brass is brand new brass that is primed. At one point it was made into ammunition but in this case federal found a flaw of some kind that caused them to scrap it. When commercial rounds are rejected it is usually because of a small blemish on the brass of some kind. Usually a small ding in the wall of the case or minor discoloration. I got them from the same place we get our pulled bullets. I've shot thousands and thousands of them before without issue but never in full auto. Most of that brass ends up going to full auto shooters so I figured we would be okay. I took a lot of shortcuts with this brass because I assumed it was new. Lesson learned. Inspect every single piece of brass.
 
What does the case look like where that "belt" is?

Solid?

Or a bit rut where the case wall was pushed out by pressure?

Certainly looks like it went off out of battery, but I am by no means an expert on this. Heck, I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn last night.

Glad you are unharmed. Sorry about the weapon.
 
I assume the shoulder portion is still in the chamber. It sure looks like it fired about 3mm short of locked.
As to why, with the damage to the bolt may never be able to tell. It is possible there is something else wedged in the front of the chamber that stopped it from locking but even then a gun should not fire without the bolt locked.
 
Is it possible that the primer was a bench rest style primer and I got a slam fire?

My vote is out of battery slamfire due to using primers that are too sensitive for the mechanism. Bench rest primers have thinner cups than mil spec, possibly a more sensitive primer mixture, and likely have a different anvil. US military spec primers have prescribed sensitivity requirements that were tailored to this mechanism. The Army developed a specific primer mix, cups are thick and harder and the anvil angle is different, to absorb more energy and thus make the primer less sensitive than the average commercial primer. Older shooters automatically respond with a root cause of high primers, because that is what they were taught. However, high primers are the most common cause of mis fires, not slamfires. Basically, if the anvil is dangling in the air and the primer cake not set against the anvil, what will result is a misfire.

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
Page 5 of 9

The real story is that Boxer primers leave the factory with the anvil higher than it would be when seated in a cartridge case. Seating so anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket lets the anvil tip penetrate into the pellet of mix. The nearly universal recommendation of having the primer cup bottom 0.003 to 0.005 inch below flush with the case head exists to set the proper amount of priming mix between the cup and the anvil tip.

This critical distance is known as the bridge thickness. Establishing the optimum thickness through proper seating means the primer meets sensitivity specifications but does not create chemical instability. However, failing to set the bridge thickness through proper seating depth is the number one cause of primer failures to fire. The bridge thickness is too great with a high primer, even one whose anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket


Conditions can be created that would induce a high primer slamfire, and that requires placing a spacer under the primer or having a shallow primer pocket. These things can happen, and both fulfill the requirements of a firmly seated primer and a proper setting of bridge thickness. However in this incident, having factory new brass, it is very unlikely to have shallow primer pockets. Regardless, I recommend reaming primer pockets to depth, hand seating all primers, and verifying that all seated primers are below the case head. While high primers are the most blamed cause of out of battery slamfires, in my opinion, they are not the most frequent cause of slamfires, in fact they hardly ever cause slamfires, the primary cause of slamfires, both in battery and out of battery, ignoring faulty trigger groups, is sensitive primers.

The proper primers in this mechanism are the military spec primers, basically CCI #34’s or Tula7.62 primers. These primers are less sensitive than commercial and reduce the changes of a slamfire, but they don’t eliminate the possibility. Primers vary by sensitivity within the lot, lots vary by sensitivity, and so do primer brands. Federal is proud to make the most sensitive primer on the market and Federal match primers are the most slamfiring primer on the market. Federal does offer a “mil spec” small rifle primer, for the AR shooters, and we ought to encourage all primer manufacturers to offer their mil spec line to the public by not using their commercial primers in Garands mechanisms.

The basic problem in the Garand mechanism is that it relies solely on primer insensitivity to prevent slamfires. Firing pins in this mechanism are totally free floating and fully able to rebound off the primer through most of the forward bolt cycle. There are many that tout the firing pin retraction cam (or receiver bridge) as a positive barrier, something it is not, and in my opinion, never was. The firing pin retraction cam is ineffective as barrier, only contacting the firing pin tang during the last 0.007" forward movement of the bolt, and, in my examination of three stripped Garand receivers, for all of the receivers, the firing pin tip is forward of the bolt face through out cam down. Given a long or a fat cartridge, the bridge is definitely not engaged, and given bolt bounce, chatter in cartridge chambering, the firing pin can hit the primer when the lugs are not engaged. This could have happened to you since you had not full length resized that brass. You were just assuming that the brass was not bulged or over length, and it could have been. Or not, either way, you were using the wrong primers.

These rifles have been slamfiring out of battery since the day they were made. If you use them, you have to recognize that sometimes, you can do everything right, but the risk exists, you have can have a combination of aggravating factors, starting with the primary requirement of an overly sensitive primer, and the mechanism will slamfire.

I have a paper copy of this report. The Army was testing production models of H&R’s and using SA M14’s as control specimens. Six rifles were under test, three by HRA and three by SA. All rifles were gaged for dimensional part compliance, and part interchangeability. Such things as the thickness of the chrome coatings were measured, etc. After gauging the rifles were reassembled and underwent endurance testing which was each rifle was to fire 6000 rounds. The total amount of 7.62 Nato to be fired would have been 36,000 rounds.

USATECOM Project No 8F-3002-04, Comparison Test of rifles, 7.62 MM, M14 Manufactured by Springfield Armory and Harrington and Richardson Arms Company. Author G. E. Hendricks, July 1963.

At round 5271 a Springfield Armory M14 went off out of battery. The report states:

One rifle fired when the bolt was in the unlocked position causing breakage for the firing pin, extractor, bolt roller, ejector, and stock. The magazine split, causing the magazine floor-plate spring and 12 rounds of ammunition to be ejected against the bench rest from which the rifle was being fired. The case ruptured and several pieces of brass were found in the area. A broken part of piece of brass perforated a cardboard box with was position between the gunner and the proof director. The cardboard box was used as a brass catcher. Not all the broken pieces were found. Although no one was physically injured this is a seriously unsafe condition.”

So, six rifles were tested, five completed the test firing 6000 rounds each, one slamfired out of battery at round 5271, for a total round count of 35, 271. Therefore a crude estimate for the probability of an out of battery slamfire, with mil spec primers, is 1:35,000. Since commercial primers are even more sensitive, on the average, than mil spec primers, the probability of a slamfire may be 1:9000, or even 1:900. And this is assuming that the primer manufacturer follows their quality control procedures and does not ship non conforming materials, that is, an overly sensitive lot of primers. Since no one has any visibility to what these guys are doing, you can assume that they ship defective material because no one sues and thus there is no cost liability.

For added anti slamfire insurance, I sent a match 30-06 Garand bolt to Roland Beaver and he added his firing pin modification. The Italians did this to their BM 59’s, obviously they decided one slamfire is one too many slamfires. This spring will reduce the firing pin impact energy on the primer. This firing pin spring is strong, but even with a spring, I get firing pin dents on chambered rounds.

DSCN2283M1BoltRolandBeaver_zps45f1cf3c.jpg

Roland charged me $25.00 total, I shipped it on a Monday, received the bolt back next Monday.

As for the belt on your cartridge case, I am of the opinion that the case head was not fully supported because the cartridge was not fully seated. Obviously the sidewalls ruptured as pressure built. Cartridge head protrusion is an extremely important dimension and if too much case head sticks out, the sidewalls will rupture.

These pictures came from Chinn's book the Machine Gun, Vol IV. I recommend that everyone read the blowback section to understand case head protrusion.

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Longdayjake: I would like permission to use your pictures in discussions about out of battery slamfires.
 
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I single stepped the frames around the kaboom and I may be way off base here, but at the time of the kaboom, it appears as though the charging handle is not in battery, as it appears to be on previous shots. My bet is a slam fire while out of battery.
Just my two cents....
 
I have an SA M1A, for which I loaded happily for years until I discovered Glen Zediker's
Handloading for the M14.
I bought the gages he recommended and broke into a sweat when I saw how out of spec some of my rounds were. Now I measure every one...
His procedures are specifically to prevent slam fires.
That being said, it may have been residue building up in the chamber that prevented the round from fully seating, and then the bolt came down and boom. I would have to guess slamfire, with the above my best guess as to the cause.
Hope that helps.
 
You can use it slamfire.

The more I think about it and the more I watch the video, I think it was a slam fire. However, the bolt was locked closed and it took a good pounding to get it to open. I don't think the bolt had completely locked when it went off.
 
If it was a "slamfire" you would have known immediately as it would have gone off without pulling the trigger. A "slamfire" also would not have blown up your rifle.

This is either a load that is way over pressure or an "Out-of-Battery" fire, not a slamfire.

Slamfire is exactly what it says, the round fires when the action "Slams" shut, without pulling the trigger. The key words here are Slams Shut.
 
Didn't realize you were RMR Jake,

I spread the word on your site, quality bullets that come securely packaged (although I always buy the insurance to help out).
I do not shop other sites for my plated needs except for .41s and 50s.
When are you gonna carry some?
LOL, I waited on those .357 JSPs and the .30 cal. FMJ 147s you had, hoping to order after Thanksgiving.
Dang!
Got lucky and picked up 800 .30 cal 155 Palmas for .20 locally, but I keep checking back for other bullets more often now.

To topic.
The compensator.
Like everything NFA related nowadays, they are probably called rare collectors items, but curious as to pricing.
Don't name many of my guns at all, but I call my 14 'big shopper' like that villain's dog on the cartoons years ago, just can't remember the name of the show to u-tube.

JT
 
I slow motioned the video several times and do not see the bolt cycling after the Kaboom. All of the slamfires I have seen or experienced, the bolt is unlocked and it goes to the rear. One I had, the receiver heel was knocked off, and that has happened to others. Unless someone can slow motion the video even further and see the bolt cycling rear ward and forward again, this appears to me to be a closed breech incident. By the way, a slamfire will split the stock through the pistol grip as the gas release into the stock is massive.

If the bolt was completely closed it is more likely that this was an overpressure event. I suppose the case head could rupture if the round slamfired on a partially locked breech but this is outside of my experience. If this was a closed breech incident then it makes more sense that this is an overpressure incident.

So, where you using surplus/pulled/decades old powder and how do you measure the charges?
 
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