Help with .38spl and TiteGroup

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mhillsing23

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I am having problems with my .38spl loads using TiteGroup (3.8g). I frequently get many rounds that simply do not fire, and occasionally get rounds that barely fire. At first I though it may have been weak primer strikes from my S&W 642, so I tried them in my Dad's 442. Same problem. I ended up pulling the failed rounds and when I opened the case the majority, if not all of the powder was there unburnt. The primers appear to have been fired successfully, and the firing pin marks look the same as the successful rounds.

I am using a published amount of TG (3.8g), and the rounds that do fire successfully feel great. Is the TG load just too low volume for the fairly large .38spl case?

Should I try a slower/higher volume powder?
 
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Without knowing what type & weight of bullet you are loading, it is hard to say if 3.8 grains is O.K. or not.

In general though, Tightgroup is an excellent powder for the .38 Spl. and that would be about right for a load.
It should be plenty to light off every time.

Give us all the details and we might could help you figure out what the problem is.

Without all the details, it sounds like your primers are not going off due to oil contamination, or some other reason.

rc
 
No, your Titegroup load isn't too light to ignite. Although you didn't tell us your bullet weight, so we cannot offer additional advice on the load. Go to published sources like http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp or a published book and stick to the data printed there.

You, friend, have a problem. Gunpowder explodes when primers ignite. In fact, it still goes pop and moves the bullet when you ignite a primer without powder.

First, check to see if you have a live primer. Wouldn't be the first time a reloader forgot to seat a new primer. Second, make sure your powder isn't wet or fouled. Third, make sure you actually have powder in the case.
 
I was typing while rc was typing. It appears that you are getting all the right advice. Go back and check your procedures.
 
RC, knowing the bullet would help make sense of my load I suppose. ;)

I have been using 125g TCFP.

The primers are stored in a safe/dry area and are inspected before use.
 
Ants, thanks for the tips.

I am seating live primers as I do inspect loaded rounds before loading them into boxes.

The powder is being stored in a dry area, and is poured fresh each time I setup to load. (I also use the same powder and powder drop for 9mm, which has been functioning just fine.)

There is definitely powder in the case, as is obviously seen when I pulled each bullet.

The suspect would seem to be bad primers, but I have been using the same lot for hundreds and hundreds of successful 9mm rounds.

I am at a loss here... :(
 
Well, 3.8 grains is well below the suggested Starting load of 4.3 for a 125 Jacketed bullet.

It is a max load for a 125 Lead bullet.

Which do you have?

If you have jacketed bullets, maybe just not getting enough pressure to get it to light off every time.
Although with Titegroup, that seems unlikely.

rc
 
They are lead, and yes that is the max load, which I have safely worked up to. (Sorry about that, I haven't run across any jacketed TCFP, so I didn't think to specify them as lead.)

I need to deprime more of my failed rounds and inspect the primers thoroughly. Maybe they aren't igniting...maybe it is a weak strike issue. I have heard that some 642s/442s have had that problem.
 
check your primer seating: are they fully seated?

What's your priming procedure? I'd also look at that area...depending on your press / primer / primer seating setup, you may have to tweak the primer depth adjustment.

Jim H.
 
I prime and load with a Lee 4-Hole Turret. I haven't measured primer depth or made any adjustments. I just use a full stroke and they seem to sit just under flush to the case bottom.

I have heard that sometimes if a primer isn't seated right the first strike from a firing pin can push it into its correct seating and then a subsequent firing will indeed ignite. I haven't been able to ignite any of the failed rounds on a followup firing.
 
Based on what you said above, I would try a little different stroke on that primer seating.

In addition to feeling that primer slide in during the stroke, at the end you should also be feeling it 'seat down'. Try a slightly firmer "push" at the end your stroke--i.e., "add a bump."

Note that your die depth settings on your two die sets--e.g., the 9mm and the .38-.357 turrets--may be just enough different to create the 'less-firm' seating when you change out to 38.

FWIW, I use a Lee standard turret, updated to a 4-die configuration--and, while the presses are different, the procedure is the same, as is the primer seating setup.

Jim H.
 
rcmodel: Aren't those plated? Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that jacketed TCFPs don't exist, only that I didn't think of specifying because I typically only see TCFP in lead.
 
Jim: thanks for the tip. I will definitely make note of this and try and give it a little extra and the end of the stroke.
 
Yes, Berry's are plated.

I'm thinking that somebody else makes 125 jacketed TCFP 'lead-free" or encapsulated bullets, but it escapes me now who it is.

Wasn't trying to bust your chops, but the difference in pressure was worth considering as a possible cause.

As for proper primer seating?
I stop using my reloading press for primer seating about 30 - 40 years ago, and went to first a Lee, and later an RCBS hand primer tool.

I haven't had a primer related issue since.
The additional "feel" allows perfect seating every time.
It's just too easy to seat too much and crush the primer pellet, or not enough and leave the anvil unseated in the pellet with all that press leverage working against you.

rc
 
I shoot those Berrys 125 Gr TrFP's rc linked to in .38 Spl and downloaded .357 cases with excellent results. Watch the crimp, just a light to medium taper crimp is all they need. I use Clays. I'm not a big Titegroup fan.

I stop using my reloading press for primer seating about 30 - 40 years ago, and went to first a Lee, and later an RCBS hand primer tool.
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20 years ago, but the same results. It does a much better job of seating primers, especially vs priming as you load in a progressive.
 
As mentioned check your primers to ensure they are seated correctly.

Also:

Check to make sure your flash holes are cleaned out.

If the primers happen to be Win I and others have experince with bad lots.

Try the primers out in your pistol with no powder or bullets and see if they go bang.

Have you had a trigger job done?

Are you sure the primers are igniting? Usally a primer by itself will push the bullet out of the case. Try de-priming a couple you thought fired and check the primers anvil.

Usally if just hte primer goes off you hear a phsst sound.

best of luck

sb
 
Titegroup is my most trusted powder. Been loading several calibers with it for at least a decade.

I've recently acquired the dies and supplies to load for the .38spl. Have yet to do so, so I haven't helpful suggestions from personal experience. I doubt it is the powder causing the problem.
 
I must be blunt here...You either have bad primers (doubtful), bad powder (a possibility) or bad loading procedures that has contaminated the powder...I would recommend that you do a burn test (safely) or buy a new canister and start again...
 
I frequently get many rounds that simply do not fire, and occasionally get rounds that barely fire.
Click to expand...


they are lead, and yes that is the max load, which I have safely worked up to
Click to expand...


how do you safely work up to a max load if you cannot get consistent ignition in the first place? did they work fine just below max charge in any of the small increments that you would safely have been working up a load with? what is the col, are the bullets lubed with something sticky on the bullets base that might contaminate the powder, what case lube do you use...many have warnings on the label that the lube will kill powder and primers. how old is the powder or what is it stored in, are you sure it is titegroup and not a slower mag powder that was misplaced?

titegroup has always worked very well anywhere from 2.5(what the recommended lee dipper threw when i actually weighed the charge) to 3.5....and i never really went past that using 125g lead round nose lubed with liquid alox and std primer.

it wont hurt to get another box of primers to see if those are the weak likn, easiest and cheapest(almost) thing to try;)
 
I frequently get many rounds that simply do not fire,...
Click to expand...
Most common cause (as others have mentioned) is primers not seated to bottom of the pocket.

.... and occasionally get rounds that barely fire.
Click to expand...

Usually lack of powder or contaminated powder.

You don't say what type of loading tool you are using, I'd guess its a progressive as such screw ups are rare with a single stage using standard safe and carfull reloading practices.

You should be able to "feel" the primer bottom out int he pocket every time you prime a case.

You need to check your powder charges to make sure you're measure is dropping a correct ammount. Pull every 10th round and check on the scale, look into every charged case to see if it has powder in it and its at a similar level to a properly charged case. Operate the handle of the loading tool or powder measure in the same way each and every time. TightGroup is a very dense and fine powder so charge volume is quite small and easy to double charge. 3.8 grs of TightGroup with a 158gr LSWC bullet in the .38 spl case is a full power load that I've chrono'd at 877 fps average from a 4" revolver. You don't need or want to go any heavier.

If you are using steel dies and lubricating the cases, make sure you are not getting any inside the case and contaminating the powder.
 
When I said it is not the powder that is the problem, I meant if the powder is Titegroup's usual, untainted quality.

It is interesting, the different angles from which you folks view a problem. Good sleuths. Excellent!
 
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