I bought a used .357 Ruger Blackhawk (NM). (I know: never buy used!) Anyway, it looks to be in good shape. I took it to the range today and had several misfires. It looks like the pin did not strike the primer hard enough...shallow dimple. Fired shells had deep dimples. It was not always the same cylinder. I was using fairly cheap .38 specials from "American Ammunition". I use this brand in my S&W M&P 40 with no problems whatssoever. Is this a know Blackhawk problem? Any ideas? I appreciate your help. Thanks!
Help with Blackhawk misfire
- Thread starter voxmortem
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jwr747
Member
BH problem
if the hammer isn't draging on the frame,someone may have bobbed the hammer spring a few coils. jwr
if the hammer isn't draging on the frame,someone may have bobbed the hammer spring a few coils. jwr
joab
Member
Or this could be your problem. Try a few of something else
Pumpkinheaver
Member
First I would try a different brand of ammo. If that doesn't clear up the problem I would say that some body had monkeyed with the mainspring, eother cutting a few coils off or replaced it with one that is too light.
Why not? I do this all the time.
But buy from someone who will stand behind the sale.To start with you will need the services of a qualified gunsmith, or you can do the following yourself if you feel competent to do so.
First, you will need a set of feeler guages, of the kind used to check the gap in a spark plug. A set isn't necessarily expensive, and can be found at most automotive supply stores, or at www.brownells.com.
Once you have the feeler guages open the loading gate on your revolver and check to be sure it's unloaded. Then while leaving the gate open hold the cylinder back as far as you can, and measure the gap between the cylinder face, and the back of the barrel. Check this measurement in front of several chambers.
Next, repeat this procedure, but this time push the cylinder forward as far as you can and take the same measurements.
Subtract the 2nd measurement from the 1st one, and this will determine if the cylinder has any end shake (back & forth movement).
Then come back with the answers and we'll see what should be done next.
Gator
Member
The way I heard it was "Never buy new!"
Measurements for Old Fuff
Old Fuff,
Thanks for the help! My feeler gauge is the blade type. The smallest is .002. With the cylinder pushed back toward the hammer, I could just get the .002 between the cylinder and forcing cone on 4 of the chambers. On two of them I could get the .003. I then pushed the cylinder forward and could not get the .002 inserted. I could not feel any play.
Should the transfer bar completely cover the firing pin when the trigger is pulled? I held the hammer back with my thumb while pulling the trigger, and the transfer only covers about 3/4 of the firing pin.
Thanks, Tim
Old Fuff,
Thanks for the help! My feeler gauge is the blade type. The smallest is .002. With the cylinder pushed back toward the hammer, I could just get the .002 between the cylinder and forcing cone on 4 of the chambers. On two of them I could get the .003. I then pushed the cylinder forward and could not get the .002 inserted. I could not feel any play.
Should the transfer bar completely cover the firing pin when the trigger is pulled? I held the hammer back with my thumb while pulling the trigger, and the transfer only covers about 3/4 of the firing pin.
Thanks, Tim
joab
Member
Gator is right
Out of over fifty guns I own I doubt five were new when I bought them.
None were after I paid for them
Out of over fifty guns I own I doubt five were new when I bought them.
None were after I paid for them
New vs Used
Well you guys must know the secret. I have bought two used ones via "Auction Arms" and "Gun Broker" and both have had troubles. The first was an H&R Sportsman 999 (22LR) that looks mint, but has spring problems and misfires about 2 out of every 9. The gunsmith told me to "take it out of state and sell it to someone I hate". The other is this Blackhawk. After a ton of research it sounded like the "brick outhouse" of revolvers. How could I go wrong? I can't believe it has this misfire problem. I guess auctions are where the bad ones get dumped...
Well you guys must know the secret. I have bought two used ones via "Auction Arms" and "Gun Broker" and both have had troubles. The first was an H&R Sportsman 999 (22LR) that looks mint, but has spring problems and misfires about 2 out of every 9. The gunsmith told me to "take it out of state and sell it to someone I hate". The other is this Blackhawk. After a ton of research it sounded like the "brick outhouse" of revolvers. How could I go wrong? I can't believe it has this misfire problem. I guess auctions are where the bad ones get dumped...
voxmortem:
No, that should be enough, but there may be other transfer bar/hammer issues.
Also you don’t have any end shake, which is unusual.
Take one of your fired cases, and either make sure the primer is flush with the case head, or use a small punch and knock it out.
Now use your feeler gauges again, and check several chambers while moving the case as necessary from chamber to chamber.
1. Measure from the rear face of the cylinder to the breech face.
2. Then measure from the rear cylinder face to the firing pin while the hammer is down and the trigger is held all of the way back.
Subtract the second result from the first, and this will give you firing pin protrusion.
3. Insert the fired cartridge into each of several chambers, and measure from the back of the case head to the breech face. Subtract this answer from the firing pin protrusion, and you will get the theoretical maximum indentation into the primer. In practice it won't go quite that far.
After that we’ll see where we are. If your firing pin protrusion is good, I’ll suspect that a weak or cut-down mainspring is to blame. Another possibility is too much clearance between the hammer face and transfer bar.
No, that should be enough, but there may be other transfer bar/hammer issues.
Also you don’t have any end shake, which is unusual.
Take one of your fired cases, and either make sure the primer is flush with the case head, or use a small punch and knock it out.
Now use your feeler gauges again, and check several chambers while moving the case as necessary from chamber to chamber.
1. Measure from the rear face of the cylinder to the breech face.
2. Then measure from the rear cylinder face to the firing pin while the hammer is down and the trigger is held all of the way back.
Subtract the second result from the first, and this will give you firing pin protrusion.
3. Insert the fired cartridge into each of several chambers, and measure from the back of the case head to the breech face. Subtract this answer from the firing pin protrusion, and you will get the theoretical maximum indentation into the primer. In practice it won't go quite that far.
After that we’ll see where we are. If your firing pin protrusion is good, I’ll suspect that a weak or cut-down mainspring is to blame. Another possibility is too much clearance between the hammer face and transfer bar.
1. Measure from the rear face of the cylinder to the breech face.
Seems to be consistently about .062. I had to stack up several feelers. Not sure it was accurate to .001.
2. Then measure from the rear cylinder face to the firing pin while the hammer is down and the trigger is held all of the way back.
This was much trickier. At first I didn't hold the hammer forward, and I could actually move the pin back slightly by stacking more feelers. Anyway, they seemed to range from .038 to .044 depending on if I crammed more feelers in. Holding my thumb on the hammer, they seemed to be about .038 to 0.40.
Subtract the second result from the first, and this will give you firing pin protrusion.
So, holding hammer down, protrusion was approximately .024 and without holding the hammer, it could be as little as .018.
3. Insert the fired cartridge into each of several chambers, and measure from the back of the case head to the breech face.
Five cylinders measured .007 and one measure .008.
Subtract this answer from the firing pin protrusion, and you will get the theoretical maximum indentation into the primer.
The range for the indentation should be between .017 and .010 (best and worst case). What should it be?
I had another guy suggest that maybe there was a lot of oil under the transfer bar, which would dampen the blow. When I received the gun, I did clean and oil it and did put some oil on the side of the bar and around back of firing pin to make sure they moved smoothly. Was this a rookie error?
Seems to be consistently about .062. I had to stack up several feelers. Not sure it was accurate to .001.
2. Then measure from the rear cylinder face to the firing pin while the hammer is down and the trigger is held all of the way back.
This was much trickier. At first I didn't hold the hammer forward, and I could actually move the pin back slightly by stacking more feelers. Anyway, they seemed to range from .038 to .044 depending on if I crammed more feelers in. Holding my thumb on the hammer, they seemed to be about .038 to 0.40.
Subtract the second result from the first, and this will give you firing pin protrusion.
So, holding hammer down, protrusion was approximately .024 and without holding the hammer, it could be as little as .018.
3. Insert the fired cartridge into each of several chambers, and measure from the back of the case head to the breech face.
Five cylinders measured .007 and one measure .008.
Subtract this answer from the firing pin protrusion, and you will get the theoretical maximum indentation into the primer.
The range for the indentation should be between .017 and .010 (best and worst case). What should it be?
I had another guy suggest that maybe there was a lot of oil under the transfer bar, which would dampen the blow. When I received the gun, I did clean and oil it and did put some oil on the side of the bar and around back of firing pin to make sure they moved smoothly. Was this a rookie error?
Kernel
Member
Base Pin Latch Spring
The only misfires I've ever had with a SB was due to recoil causing the base pin jumping forward a small amount.
Is that a possiblity?
The fix is easy. A new Base Pin Latch Spring will remedy the problem. It's like a 50 cent part from Brownells, though I wouldn't be suprised if Ruger just sent you a new one for free. -- Kernel
The only misfires I've ever had with a SB was due to recoil causing the base pin jumping forward a small amount.
Is that a possiblity?
The fix is easy. A new Base Pin Latch Spring will remedy the problem. It's like a 50 cent part from Brownells, though I wouldn't be suprised if Ruger just sent you a new one for free. -- Kernel
I
No, unless it was rock-solid oil.
In the Old Model Ruger Blackhawks the hammer hit the firing pin directly. In the New Model the hammer hits the transfer bar, which in turn hits the firing pin. Obviously in this case all of the hammer's energy is not transferred to the firing pin.
As the transfer bar moves up and down there is a clearance between the frame and the hammer face. This clearance is more then the thickness of the transfer bar, because if it wasn't the bar would wedge and the trigger would stick in the backward position. But the more that this clearance is, the less the firing pin can protrude, and the less the hammer's energy is transferred to the firing pin. This is why you are getting different readings when you try to gauge firing pin protrusion.
The clearance between the case head and breech face is more then I'd like to see at .007-.008 inches, but I believe it's within Ruger specifications.
While it shouldn't make any difference, I would try some different brands of ammunition, simply to eliminate that as a factor. I'd also go to www.brownells.com and order a standard Blackhawk mainspring (Stock #780-001-127) @ $2.16 as it could prove to be an inexpensive solution. If none if this works, I'd return the revolver to Ruger, where they might replace the firing pin, hammer, or cylinder on their dime. They might also reduce the clearance between the hammer face and frame through which the transfer bar moves, which would increase firing pin protrusion by a like amount.
Ruger's Blackhawks are built like a "solid" outhouse, but if a previous owner who was less then expert decided to do an action job on the insides it would explain a lot.
When we get over this one I'll explain how to fix the H&R 999. It usually isn't difficult or expensive, and they are sort of a neat revolver.
No, unless it was rock-solid oil.
In the Old Model Ruger Blackhawks the hammer hit the firing pin directly. In the New Model the hammer hits the transfer bar, which in turn hits the firing pin. Obviously in this case all of the hammer's energy is not transferred to the firing pin.
As the transfer bar moves up and down there is a clearance between the frame and the hammer face. This clearance is more then the thickness of the transfer bar, because if it wasn't the bar would wedge and the trigger would stick in the backward position. But the more that this clearance is, the less the firing pin can protrude, and the less the hammer's energy is transferred to the firing pin. This is why you are getting different readings when you try to gauge firing pin protrusion.
The clearance between the case head and breech face is more then I'd like to see at .007-.008 inches, but I believe it's within Ruger specifications.
While it shouldn't make any difference, I would try some different brands of ammunition, simply to eliminate that as a factor. I'd also go to www.brownells.com and order a standard Blackhawk mainspring (Stock #780-001-127) @ $2.16 as it could prove to be an inexpensive solution. If none if this works, I'd return the revolver to Ruger, where they might replace the firing pin, hammer, or cylinder on their dime. They might also reduce the clearance between the hammer face and frame through which the transfer bar moves, which would increase firing pin protrusion by a like amount.
Ruger's Blackhawks are built like a "solid" outhouse, but if a previous owner who was less then expert decided to do an action job on the insides it would explain a lot.
When we get over this one I'll explain how to fix the H&R 999. It usually isn't difficult or expensive, and they are sort of a neat revolver.
Master Blaster
Member
Amerc is know for producing inconsistent out of spec ammo.
Just because you shot a different box in another gun and it worked doesnt mean there is nothing wrong with the box you fired in your blackhawk.
Try other ammo, there is probably nothing wrong with your Blackhawk.
Bear41mag
Member
I avoid American Ammo & Amerc brass like the plague!
My shooting buddy bought 500 rounds of 45 acp from a friend of his that was moving. About 70% fired reliably. Most of the mis-fires were soft primer hits, that would not even fire when put into a 45 acp revolver either, some would not even chamber in his auto or my 625.
After pulling some of the loaded rounds we found different types of primers and different variations in powder charges. Pulled all the bullets, took the powder out back and burned it, soaked the primed cases in oil and trashed them.
If you blackhawk is not going off I would wager that its the ammo.
I have had many blackhawks over the years and have never had the type of problem you describe.
Try different ammo first and avoid American Ammo, its junk....
My shooting buddy bought 500 rounds of 45 acp from a friend of his that was moving. About 70% fired reliably. Most of the mis-fires were soft primer hits, that would not even fire when put into a 45 acp revolver either, some would not even chamber in his auto or my 625.
After pulling some of the loaded rounds we found different types of primers and different variations in powder charges. Pulled all the bullets, took the powder out back and burned it, soaked the primed cases in oil and trashed them.
If you blackhawk is not going off I would wager that its the ammo.
I have had many blackhawks over the years and have never had the type of problem you describe.
Try different ammo first and avoid American Ammo, its junk....
Pix of spring
Old Fuff,
I took the grip off and looked at the spring. It doesn't look cut down to me. I also haven't made it to the range...I've had company. Anyway, I uploaded a couple of pictures. http://members.cox.net/tbanta/blackhawk/
Thanks, Tim
Old Fuff,
I took the grip off and looked at the spring. It doesn't look cut down to me. I also haven't made it to the range...I've had company. Anyway, I uploaded a couple of pictures. http://members.cox.net/tbanta/blackhawk/
Thanks, Tim
Cosmoline
Member
What's the fun of a firearm if it doesn't have problems to fix
The replacement springs are quite inexpensive from numrich or midway. Wolff sells replacement packs. If it's still doing it with other ammo I'd suggest swapping the mainspring out and seeing what happens. You can't always tell if the spring has been reduced, and I remain suspicious of it simply because that's the first thing people tend to alter on new model Rugers. I don't think the transfer bar is the problem, as long as it's covering most of the pin the hammer should come down with more than enough force to set off the primers.
The replacement springs are quite inexpensive from numrich or midway. Wolff sells replacement packs. If it's still doing it with other ammo I'd suggest swapping the mainspring out and seeing what happens. You can't always tell if the spring has been reduced, and I remain suspicious of it simply because that's the first thing people tend to alter on new model Rugers. I don't think the transfer bar is the problem, as long as it's covering most of the pin the hammer should come down with more than enough force to set off the primers.
Confederate
Member
I would look at the coil spring to see if some coils have been clipped. If so, you'll need to replace them. You'll also need to use your feeler guage to measure the space between the case/primer and the back of the revolver. It should be no more than .009".
Some off brand ammo manufacturers use hard primers bought from the lowest bidder, so if some primer dents are respectable and others aren't, I'd dang well look at the ammo!
Some off brand ammo manufacturers use hard primers bought from the lowest bidder, so if some primer dents are respectable and others aren't, I'd dang well look at the ammo!
jaybar
Member
Replace trhe mainspring already!
Gee whiz Fuff - I'm disappointed. your usually analytic visual stimulus machine must be low on fuel (not enough coffee today?) You didn't jump all over the possibility of the wrong mainspring being installed.!
voxmortem - In reviewing the pictures, its pretty obvious that the trigger return spring is not stock (bent legs). It looks a lot like one of the Wolff reduced power trigger return springs that comes in their kit "Shooters Pak" of reduced power springs. You can buy these paks with a reduced power mainspring of 15#, 16#, 17#, 18#, 19#,20#, or 21# reduced power. The factory spring is 23#. If, when you cock it, the hammer is very easy to pull back and buttery smooth, I'd bet that the previous owner installed one of the very light 15#-17# mainsprings when he performed his DIY trigger job. Go to gunsprings.com (Wollf's web-site) and order a 19#, 20# and a 21# spring set and maybe even a 23# spring. They are cheap enough so that you can experiment around until you find a weight that is heavy enough to assure proper ignition without significantly impacting the trigger pull.
Gee whiz Fuff - I'm disappointed. your usually analytic visual stimulus machine must be low on fuel (not enough coffee today?) You didn't jump all over the possibility of the wrong mainspring being installed.!
voxmortem - In reviewing the pictures, its pretty obvious that the trigger return spring is not stock (bent legs). It looks a lot like one of the Wolff reduced power trigger return springs that comes in their kit "Shooters Pak" of reduced power springs. You can buy these paks with a reduced power mainspring of 15#, 16#, 17#, 18#, 19#,20#, or 21# reduced power. The factory spring is 23#. If, when you cock it, the hammer is very easy to pull back and buttery smooth, I'd bet that the previous owner installed one of the very light 15#-17# mainsprings when he performed his DIY trigger job. Go to gunsprings.com (Wollf's web-site) and order a 19#, 20# and a 21# spring set and maybe even a 23# spring. They are cheap enough so that you can experiment around until you find a weight that is heavy enough to assure proper ignition without significantly impacting the trigger pull.
Well at his age the Old Fuff can usually use an additional caffine jolt... 
No, I'm on to the mainspring thing, but usually a Blackhawk will give reliable ignition with a substantially weakened mainspring because of the hammer's weight and long rotational travel. And in this case there have been some negative comments about the ammunition. At this point it seems that end-shake, headspace, cartridge head clearence, and firing pin protrusion have been checked and appear to be within Ruger's somewhat loose specifications.
If voxmortem tries some other brands of ammunition and still gets misfires I'd look at the mainspring again. But if you read through the whole thread you'll see that I did get into mainspring issues in some detail.
If I had the gun I could tell very quickly. As it is I'll wait until some more rounds go downrange and then see where we're at.
No, I'm on to the mainspring thing, but usually a Blackhawk will give reliable ignition with a substantially weakened mainspring because of the hammer's weight and long rotational travel. And in this case there have been some negative comments about the ammunition. At this point it seems that end-shake, headspace, cartridge head clearence, and firing pin protrusion have been checked and appear to be within Ruger's somewhat loose specifications.
If voxmortem tries some other brands of ammunition and still gets misfires I'd look at the mainspring again. But if you read through the whole thread you'll see that I did get into mainspring issues in some detail.
If I had the gun I could tell very quickly. As it is I'll wait until some more rounds go downrange and then see where we're at.
jaybar
Member
Mea culpa Old Fuff - my apology
Doggone-it Fuff you still got it. I didn't perceive this absolutely appropriate statement hidden in the middle of your spot-on diagnosis. I gotta quit speed reading and make my lips move when I read. I'll never doubt you again.
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