Help with choosing a NM AR15, please.

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shooterer

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I would like to start shooting matches and would like some imput on where I would get the most bang for my bucks in factory National match rifles.

Armalite
Rock River
Bush Master
Others?

Also, should I be looking at A4 with detachable handle (all my current AR's are A2's)

Any info would help.

Thanks,
Shooterer
 
i shot my first two years of HP with a RRA NM and then had it rebarreled by white oak and shot last year with that. Hollinger did an outstanding job and I'm very pleased. i haven't won anything yet though :) but i did get leg points at perry this year.
 
The detach handle is going to add $80 - 100 to the price so, unless you can see a clear alternative use for the gun, why bother? If it may ever be used as a casual varmint gun or somesuch, then the ability to low mount an optic would be worth the difference in price.

White Oak appears a great way to go, both from many local recommendations and a couple of experiences handling them.
/Bryan
 
I don't know how far north you're located in WI, but if you ever end up down here in Central Illinois you could stop by and I'd let you shoot my RRA DCM rifle. (A4 config with detachable carry handle). It definately shoots alot better than I'm capable of holding it. When I ordered it a couple of years ago it took me about 6 months to get it as the Armourer's were building up rifles for Camp Perry (I think).

Regards,
Dave
 
Don't get a detachable handle. Even with "NM" sight it will not give enough elevation for the 600 yard line.

Definately go with Hollinger or CLE. If you don't want to spend that much Bushmaster or RR will serve you well until you make master. I think there are some of these left, 100 Anniversary Bushmaster AR15's. A steal at $960:
Rifle.jpg
http://www.odcmp.org/1007/default.asp?page=BUSHMASTER

Edited to add that you can save some money with WOA or CLE by going with Douglas or Wilson barrels. I've shot both and they are both very good barrels. My Douglas with 2600 rounds will shoot 199 at 600 yards. I've never cleaned the 6 with a SR.
 
Thanks everyone for the input (and please don't stop)

Howard; I never heard that about the adjustment of the detach handle, I thought they all would have to be the same to make specs. I also thought that there was some advantage to the detach (even though I didn't know what it was) otherwise why would it be an option on a comp rifle?

Also what is the 6 & SR (service rifle?) in "I've never cleaned the 6 with a SR"?

Thanks again
Shooterer
 
I wouldn't get an A4 with a detachable carry handle simply because of the elevation issues and because the carry handle 'removability' is another factor to worry about as far as a malfunction (handle somehow coming loose). If it were to come loose, you can always tighten it back up, but how do you know it will be back to perfect original zero?

Stick with an A2.

My opinion:

Get the WOA complete service rifle upper at $695 with the pinned rear sight option (additional $55). That gun will last you at least a year with at least one match a month and moderate range time (practice). Then you can rebarrel it yourself for only $200 with a WOA service rifle competition barrel.

Get a good complete upper and a good complete trigger. The lower and stock are pretty much standard across the board. Don't get me wrong, there are probably quite a few low quality built lowers. But for the most part, they're all the same as long as their built to spec.

Here's some pictures of my SR competition gun related stuff:
http://www.ocabj.net/gallery2/v/shooting/firearms/service_rifle_hp_ar15/
 
Let me second the WOA option. I really like the 1:7 wilson barrel. Mine's got almost 4000 rounds on it from last season, and it still shot the best X-count at 600 (9x) I had all season in the last match. Another nice thing (though I'm sure you could swap out parts to do this on another upper) is the elevation knob is numbered, 25 clicks per revolution. It's really nice to be able to look at it and see if you changed from your standing to sitting zero without backing down and counting up.

Also, the Holliger's tuned RRA trigger is really nice. Definitely the best deal for an AR trigger. It's $120 for the trigger, or $30 if you send him your RRA (match, not an ordinary one) trigger. Well worth it.

All that said, the Rock River rifle isn't bad, either. And if you find a good deal on it, or the extra $100 or so for the WOA is a bit much for your budget, go for it. I like mine, but I really like the WOA upper.

I've also heard the Bushmaster's not bad. But I have used the trigger, and it's really bad. It feels nice, when there's a second stage. But sometimes the second stage disappears, then returns the next shot. It's not good at all to start taking up the slack offhand and then hear a bang. (Other folks I shoot with have had similar experiences with it)

I haven't used, or heard much about the others, so I can't comment on them, I'd be surprised if they're no good, however.
 
Shooterer,

The available depth of the recess on a detach carry handle for the sight threads is not deep enough to allow for as much vertical travel as a standard A2.

I would think there is a different "spec" for the detachable handle sight. The reason the detach handle is allowed on a competition rifle is because the CMP allows current issue rifle configurations to be used. The M16A4 is now a general issue weapon. There is no advantage to the M4.

The "6" means the 600 yard line.

You are correct, SR=Service Rifle, MR=Match Rifle. You will see this on your SR-1 (match registration sheet) when you start shooting.

Find a club, ask questions and jump in. Welcome to High Power.
 
Another reason to go with the fixed carry handle is that can't pin the rear sights on it where they can on the fixed.
I have a Colt with a detachable carry handle. I bought it for the price- $700.00 out the door. I have a scope on it for varmint shooting but have been setting it up to start shooting matches with. The rear sights will become a problem, but there's nothing I can do about it unless I sell it and buy another rifle.
Go with the WOA. It is worth every nickel.

Jim
 
I have NM AR's by Armalite, Bushmaster and Rock River.

Once you replace the Bushmaster trigger, they are all basically equal. That is, I have met guys at Camp Perry who won major events, like the President's 100, or high service rifle, with stock box Armalites, Rock Rivers, and maybe a Bushmaster (though I can't think of what the Bushmaster won).

That is the great thing about the AR, you can buy a factory rifle that is totally capable of winning every match at the Nationals. And these brands, they are quality brands.

My Match AR has a Holliger tuned RRA two stage trigger. That guy knows what he is doing, you cannot go wrong if you want to spend a few extra pennies with John at White Oak precision.
 
I'm another fan of John Holliger at White Oak. His production upper will be shooting better than I can for quite some time, and his "tuned RRA trigger" is the most pleasant to shoot with of all the triggers I've ever used.
 
The next step.

Thanks everyone for your insight.

After hours and hours of research I have decided to go with the Rock River A2 with ¼ x ¼ sights .040 aperture and black furniture. I order one from Pete at Legal Transfer for $949.00 (shipped). I should see the rifle in 4-6 weeks. After time I know I will send it off to John at WOP for work, but for once I am going to start with baby steps instead of my normal "dive in head first" approach to new ventures.

The wait will be a good thing giving me time to purchase the other supplies I need, and that brings me to my next question (and there will be plenty more).

Could you guys (and ladies) give me suggestions on the best ideas for:
* Factory Match ammo
* Jacket
* Sighting scope & stand
* Books, DVDs or websites on proper service rifle shooting. (the tips at CMP have been helpful)

Thanks again,
Shooterer
 
Factory Ammo: Black Hills 77gr or 69gr. match ammo. You can shoot the 77's at the 600 yard line for a while.

Jacket: Creedmore Sports

Scope: Kowa 60mm or equivalent. If you can swing the price of a good scope you will only have to buy one. Ray-Vin makes the best stand for the money I've used.

The best money you will spend on training materials is to buy the CMP Highpower Service Rifle DVD made by the USAMU. Buy this first. It is a very comprehensive guide to get started in highpower. It will show you how to do it right the first time and not start out with bad habits. If you can find a clinic in your area to attend that would be great.
 
Like Howard said for the ammo and the jacket.

As for a scope, The Kowa 60 seems to be the standard on the line but I didn't have $600 for a scope and eyepiece. A lot of the Kowas are using 20x fixed eyepieces. 20x will show you holes at 100 and the scoring markers at 600. I bought a Celestron Ultima 20-60-80mm. It was only like $250. I can see .223 holes at 200 and .308 holes at 300 on a sunny day. Plus it works great for looking at the eagles that nest in the park near my house.

The Ray-Vin stands are the best but the Champions Choice stands are decent and might be a better option if you're on a budget.
 
The USAMU posts articles via the CMP website. One recent article discussses the bare necessities to shoot in an HP event. It's a pretty good assessment of what you *need* in order to shoot/particpate in an event.

Granted, there are plenty of things left out that will make things more comfortable for you and help improve your performance, but are optional as far as actually participating.

The three items you definitely don't want to gloss over are:

1. Rifle
2. Ammo
3. Sling
 
shooterer, I've dealt with Pete at Legal Transfers before. I bought a tele stock for my Mom last winter from him (she's 5 ft 2 and the A2 stock length is awkward for her).

Pete is "good people." I got just what he said I would, when he said that I'd get it. No surprises.
 
Shooter, I would have to agree with ocabj. I don't know of too many non military guys who had everything they needed first time they stepped up to the line. Shoot a few matches. One thing I like about this game is everyone is willing to help. Find out what the guys you are shooting around are using. Some might even have spare gear.

Good choice of rifle and better yet at a fair price.
 
I don't know of too many non military guys who had everything they needed first time they stepped up to the line.
Click to expand...

Even military shooters don't always have all the gear. HP can be an expensive sport, so it's not unheard of to see people, especially active duty military shooters, sharing gear like spotting scopes, stands, and mats. Lots of shooters, military and civilian, have some really beat up and hand me down gear. But often, those are the shooters who do well in matches.
 
Even if you have some equipment, you will find that you see things at matches that work better than others. Most shooters are willing to share experience and you can find many sources of quality High Power equipment that way. That said, it will take time an coin to acquire your perfect setup.

advice* Find a shooting buddy at a local range, or at a match who has been playing the game for a while. You will find that the things they suggest on the line will answer your questions before you can ask them.

I've seen RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster,WOA on the line... Has to do more with how the rifle is fitted, the ammo, and the shooter than a brand.

I started out shooting a SA Supermatch M1A, which is fun, but learned real quick that the little black rifles didn't give any ground in the rapids, so I am now using a RRA NM A-2... also, 1:8 barrel and 77gr bullets hold well!

Ray-Vin is Excellent!! Creedmore and Sinclair have good products too! I like the Kowa Scopes, but my Leupold has a better warranty and sees just as well. Look around and see what people use and ask them why... We have all worked to get what we have, and we try to get what works best for us!

Start with the basics and refine your gear to fit your needs as you discover them!

Good Luck!
 
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