Help with measuring flask

[arcticap]

If Randy Wakeman read our BP forum on a regular basis he could certainly learn a thing or three!

I remember taking an eye test when I was a kid. The doctor held up some fingers and then asked how many fingers you saw. If you answered correctly then you passed! That's a simple test that's a lot like measuring out your favorite black powder loads using a volume measure.
Like Ronco founder Ron Popeil says to do with his Showtime Rotisserie & BBQ, "Just set it and forget it!"

 

[junkman_01]

I just did a pretty comprehensive test of the spout on my pistol powder flask.
The spout is presumably a 28 grain spout. The only markings on it are 'Made in Italy'.

I first removed the spout from the flask and put one end on a flat surface and filled it level to the top with Goex 3F black powder. I did this several times and weighed each charge on my Ohaus 1110 Dial-O-Grain powder scale. It weighed a consistent 25 grains.

Next, I put the spout back on the flask and dispensed the powder into the spout as I do for loading my M1860 Armies. Depending on how hard I pressed my finger on the spout, the charges weighed 26-26.5 grains on the Ohaus scale. The difference here is that the cut-off valve plate is not very tight against the bottom of the spout ( it will leak powder if you shake upside down).

Next I removed the spout once more and filled it to the top with tap-water and an eye dropper while holding my finger over the one end. I next weighed the water that was in the spout and it weighed a consistent 28 grains.

That my friends, answers the questions raised for me. Although there is no national standard for 'volume grains' for determining black powder charges, it's obvious to me that the procedure for setting the spout length IS done with water!

 

[TheRodDoc]

As I said in post 24 of this thread, There is and has always been a standard for measuring black powder.
The volume of a certain weight of water.

In the old days everyone knew this. But now days it seems most do not. It has been lost in the suffle.

 

[jimrbto]

I am going to take exception with all this "water"B.S. I am tired of hearing about it!

Over sixty years ago I had the opportunity to work at a bp range and watch all the old timers load and shoot every kind of bp firearm there was at the time. Whenever a new gun or barrel was gotten by any of them a rather long process was engaged in in finding the most accurate load for it. This involved going to the range with a powder scale, using an estimated starting load and working up/down from there. All charges were weighed and fired. When a load was found that satisfied the shooter a tube made of sheet brass was made and cut to contain the exact weight/granulation the shooter intended to use and a string of 10 charges were weighed from the new measure to insure that it was as exact as possible. Then the measure was marked with the weight and granulation.

Water never entered the world of bp until current times, never back in the day.
Todays' after market makers of accessories don't want to keep or have bp on hand so they use a measure of water as a CLOSE standard to a volume of bp. Note "close", as bp is close to water in specific gravity-not exact!

It is always best to make your own chargers or at least verify how much powder the after market charger is throwing. Also if you change powder lots or granulation, i.e. if you switch from 3f to 2f again verify the weight. It will change.

I won't use substitute powders so you are on your own with them,
Good luck and be very wary of anyone who says there is no relation between a volume measure of bp and weight!

 

[Skinny 1950]

I am new to Black Powder shooting but not to weights and measures.
There are two different types of measure...scalar and vector, a scalar measure is absolute ie can be determined by one number. Weight is scalar,it is a measure of the force developed by an object at one Gravity. Volume is also absolute so the assumption is that they are the same,and they would be except for the variable of weight per given volume or specific gravity.
Some substitutes for Black Powder weigh less than B.P. for a given volume but are recommended to be used at the same volume as B.P.
An adjustable measure of volume on a flask can be used if you account for the difference in specific gravity or density.
Specific gravity is determined by comparing an equal volume of the stuff you are trying to find the specific gravity of to an equal volume of water. Density is the weight for a given volume and does not involve water.

 

[junkman_01]

You know, this is starting to sound like that old question...Which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead? :banghead:

 

[Skinny 1950]

If I had to be shot I will take the feathers.............

 

[coppermouse]

Well I didn't intend to stir up such a controversy. Anyways I figured out how to adjust the measure properly and get it to throw charges repeatably.
Since it is not graduated, the only way I have to check it is to use my scale. So I am using 30 gr by weight. I do have a question, there is a little sliding cover that pivots on a screw next to the powder dispenser, and it appears to be some type of storage compartment, like a tube that goes down inside. What is that for? it is too small for 44 cal balls

 

[junkman_01]

I also have a flask like that. It is to store .440 balls for a .45 caliber rifle. At least that is what I use it for.

 

[TheRodDoc]

jimrbto,

This is the reason there has always been a standard for making a black powder measure using water volume.

It is and has always been the only way for the world to know exactly how much powder a certain case or revolver will hold.

No matter what brand or type of black powder they are using. No matter what weight their powder is.
And all brands of powder varied in weight. Depending on its density and moisture content. Factory made or homemade. Corned or not and etc.

The object was to fill your chamber with the right amount and have the ball or bullet end up in the right place in case or chamber. In olden days they wanted all the power the gun could have. especially with conical bullets. Guns were for killing and most were under powered for that anyway, so they wanted and needed all the powder in the cylinder it would hold.

In the past they wanted all the powder in the ball and cap revolvers they could get with out having the ball protrude past the face of the cylinder. And with out crushing the power to get it that way.
In the cartridge type the powder level in the case has to be just the right height in the case for the bullet to seat against it.

So if I want to tell you or anyone to use 35 grains of black powder in a 45 colt case we know that a measure that was made from a volume of water that filled that case to the right height will always fill that case with any brand of powder to that same height.
No matter what kind of powder they have or how much it weighs. Even the substitutes. Or even sand or dirt or what ever. they will all be the right height for the bullet to seat on it.

With your method I could not tell anyone how much powder it will take for that case.
If I told you to weigh out 35 grains of your powder for that 45 case you might not have enough in the case. And have an air gap between powder and bullet. Or in a cap and ball you might not have a full load.

I tell your neighbor to load his the same way but he has a different brand of powder. he weighs out 35 grains of his powder and his case might be too full. His bullet won't seat in far enough. Or he has to crush the powder to try to get it in the case far enough. In a cap and ball the ball might be protruding past the front of cylinder and jam the gun.

There is no law saying you can't weight your own powder for loading but the industry standard for the whole world has always been by water volume. Now we can publish a load and everyone will get the right amount of powder in there case.

What you said in your post is what I was saying about, lost in the shuffle.

 

[jimrbto]

RodDoc
You refer to the water volume method as an absolute. i.e.
1. ".......there has ALWAYS been a standard for making a black powder measure using water volume".
2. "....but the industry standard for the whole world has ALWAYS been by water volume".

Now if this were true it would seem logical that some standards institute or organization would have reference to it, it also seems reasonable that other people here would have heard of it.
I did a quick internet search and can find no reference anywhere to your method. Perhaps you are privy to information no one else here is aware of, would you please enlighten all of us and post a reference here that we all can read. I personally would like to read the background material on this and the reasoning for coming up with it as opposed to any other method.
Thank you
Jim

 

[mykeal]

Hmm. Well, I heard about it some 35 years ago; my reference is standing in the Four Flags Trading Post in Wichita listening to folks who had been shooting black powder guns for, at that time, some 40 years.

The fact that it's not recognized by some governmental standards bureaucracy is meaningless. If I had a dime for every failure of government to get something right nobody else would have any money at all. Beyond the political rant, it's entirely reasonable that there's no government-based or for that matter, corporate-based, published standard. Beyond selling powder measures, which hardly rates as a billion dollar industry, there's no commerce involved in measuring black powder. There's only a niche group of rather 'hermitic' (pun intended) sportsmen who care. If there's no commerce, there's no reason for any regulation, and thus no need for a commercial or governmental standard. Makes perfect sense to me.

While I entirely agree with the characterization of 'grains of black powder' as being based on the volume of a weight of water, I have to say that we don't think of it in those terms. Over the years the standard usage has been to consider 'grains of black powder' as a volume measurement. Perhaps for that reason we see little historical documentation - there's simply no need for it as we all understand what is meant when one uses the term 'grains of black powder'.

Which, in turn, means this entire discussion is quite ludicrous.

 

[denster]

Well said Mykeal.

 

[NCWanderer]

Yep....I agree with RodDoc. That's just the way it is.

 

[Skinny 1950]

There are standards for weights and measures,one standard for weight is:

! Gram = 15.4223 Grains
Another standard is:
1 pound =453.592 grams

As it happens 1 gram of water has a VOLUME of 1 millilitre.

The main thing is Grains is a measure of weight NOT volume!!!!!:banghead:

I have never heard of someone loading a gun in the field or range buy weighing out each powder charge,it is done by volume. Once you have worked out the volume of the powder you are going to use then add filler to make up for space left over if you are shooting a revolver. For long guns there is no cylinder length to worry about so use as much as is safe and needed to do the job.

 

[[email protected]]

Yes they do weigh out every charge at Friendship down on the slug gun range
I have watched Webb Terry do this everytime he shot. I have done it many
times. I know some pistol shooters who weigh their chargers at home and put them in little bottles and bring them to the range. When I say I use 17.5 grains of Goex FFF in my pistol, that is what
the charge weighs on my powder scale. When I use a different lot of Goex
I have to re-adjust my powder thrower. I have no idea what the volume of
Black Powder it is. I don't load by volume. Different powders take up different
amounts of volume, a grain is a grain and always remains the same. And that's
the way it is.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I stand corrected there are some that would waste their time weighing each and every charge when you know how much you need by volume.

 

[[email protected]]

There are those who shoot for accuracy and try to get the best from their
guns be it for hunting or target shooting, and there are those who shoot
just to make noise. There is room for both. Have Fun.