"Calibrating" Powder Flask

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tpelle

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I ordered a Pedersoli Colt-style powder flask with my new Pietta 1860 Army. I notice that the spout on the flask seems, by my eyeball gage" to be pretty large.

I looked at several original flasks that appear in my copy of "Colt Single Action" by Dennis Adler, and that seems to confirm that the spout on my flask appears to be significantly larger than the originals.

I intend to shoot Pyrodex P, as that is all that I currently have at this time. If I were to throw a charge from this flask and measure it on my electronic reloading scale, what would be a good measurement BY WEIGHT of Pyrodex P to represent a good working load for an 1860 Army?

I can trim the spout on the flask to throw the proper weight of Pyrodex P, then if I find some Goex or other substitute I should still be correct by volume, right?
 
I just threw a charge of Pyrodex P from the flask and weighed it with my Hornady electronic scale. It weighed at 15.9 grains. Assuming that Pyrodex is 70% of the weight of BP, then this should calculate out to 22.71 grains. I guess that spout isn't so big after all.

(BTW, when I was foolling around with this flask I noticed that, engraved on the side of the spout, it says "Made in Italy 24gr"! Duh!)
 
I thought current Powder Flask spouts and Powder measures were set-up to equal to a corisponding "By-Volume" measure.
When I shoot 777, I always cross measure propellants by using a small pocket size Powder Measure to fill the chambers. It only takes a breif moment to cross-check the fill and besides, if you error, who would not want to error on the side of safety?
BTW, I have always viewed the Powder Flask as a murderous Hand Grenade and I prefer to load my chambers with a little pocket Powder measure. I feel that the possible loss of a few fingers outweighs the loss of life from an errant ember glowing in the chamber...
I make it a pratice to load my Black Powder revolvers in such a manner. # 1 it provides me the safest method. # 2 it sounds a little weird, but loading in such a manner, I get to "handle" the gun just a bit more and frankilly, who dosen't like handling their guns just a little extra? The main reason I got into BP was to slow down from burning through boxes and boxes of ammo with a semi-auto mind set. BP loading and shooting methods are relaxing and it reward the shooter with a lot of"quality" time with their gun?
Back onto the topic:
I'd cross-measure the volume of each chamber just to ensure that safety limits were being adhered to. To keep things in a proper perspective, I would figure that those little pocket measures weren't weight exact, and consider them simply a volume per volume device. In fact my CVA measure was marked such on the factory bubble pack!
With the variances in the specific gravity, granule size, and granule weight of different Propellants, I can't see how any small measure could be counted upon to provide any reliable measure other than just a "volume" source? Each propellant weighs differently and one scale could not be counted upon to provide an accurate weight measure.
There is but one method that you could count on and it is that each pocket measure would need to be specific to eachPropellant individually. It would take literally a dozen different measures to get near to accomplish this and a possible mix-up could be BIG trouble!
Naw, I just consider these little measures to be by "voume" only. The only other way would be to tote a proper Powder Scale with you and measure acoridinglly.
Hope this helps,
ZVP
 
ZVP said:
I thought current Powder Flask spouts and Powder measures were set-up to equal to a corisponding "By-Volume" measure.
When I shoot 777, I always cross measure propellants by using a small pocket size Powder Measure to fill the chambers. It only takes a breif moment to cross-check the fill and besides, if you error, who would not want to error on the side of safety?
BTW, I have always viewed the Powder Flask as a murderous Hand Grenade and I prefer to load my chambers with a little pocket Powder measure. I feel that the possible loss of a few fingers outweighs the loss of life from an errant ember glowing in the chamber...
I make it a pratice to load my Black Powder revolvers in such a manner. # 1 it provides me the safest method. # 2 it sounds a little weird, but loading in such a manner, I get to "handle" the gun just a bit more and frankilly, who dosen't like handling their guns just a little extra? The main reason I got into BP was to slow down from burning through boxes and boxes of ammo with a semi-auto mind set. BP loading and shooting methods are relaxing and it reward the shooter with a lot of"quality" time with their gun?
Back onto the topic:
I'd cross-measure the volume of each chamber just to ensure that safety limits were being adhered to. To keep things in a proper perspective, I would figure that those little pocket measures weren't weight exact, and consider them simply a volume per volume device. In fact my CVA measure was marked such on the factory bubble pack!
With the variances in the specific gravity, granule size, and granule weight of different Propellants, I can't see how any small measure could be counted upon to provide any reliable measure other than just a "volume" source? Each propellant weighs differently and one scale could not be counted upon to provide an accurate weight measure.
There is but one method that you could count on and it is that each pocket measure would need to be specific to eachPropellant individually. It would take literally a dozen different measures to get near to accomplish this and a possible mix-up could be BIG trouble!
Naw, I just consider these little measures to be by "voume" only. The only other way would be to tote a proper Powder Scale with you and measure acoridinglly.
Hope this helps,
ZVP
Click to expand...
Huh?
 
I was concerned over the size of the spout on this flask in comparison to those shown in photos in my reference books. The flask was advertised as throwing a 24 grain charge, which would have been 24 grains (by weight) of black powder. What I wanted to know was what would be the weight of an equivalent charge of Pyrodex P if I weighed it on my electronic scale.

The spout was marked 24 grains, but I just wanted to double-check that the spout was made correctly and would throw a safe charge. I recall reading that the weight of Pyrodex was about 70% that of black powder, so I just threw a charge of Pyrodex, weighed it, and divided the weight by 0.7. Using that calculation, the 15.9 grains by weight of Pyrodex would work out to be equivalent to 22.71 grains by weight of black powder, which is good enough confirmation that the 24 grains marked on the spout is a good number.

Better to be safe than sorry.
 
All black powder or substitutes amounts are always listed in volume. Your advertized spout is also volume. Not weight. 24 grains volume of Pyrodex is the same as 24 grains volume of black powder.
 
Well, not exactly. The spout, marked 24 grains, should throw a charge of 24 grains of BLACK POWDER by weight. Whatever VOLUME that is, if you fill the spout with the same VOLUME of Pyrodex P, that is a charge of equivalent power to the same VOLUME of black powder. The WEIGHT of the charge of Pyrodex will be different, however.

I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but what I was setting out to determine is what WEIGHT of Pyrodex is equal in power to a given WEIGHT of black powder. I can weigh the charge of Pyrodex on my scale, and I know the spout on my flask is supposed to be calibrated to a weight of black powder, but I can't weigh the same volume of black powder on my scale to check that the spout is accurate because I don't have any black powder.

But you're right, you always measure Pyrodex or any of the other substitutes, against the equivalent volume of black powder.
 
The problem you're going to run into is the moisture content of said powder, whether it's the Pyrodex or the Black Powder.

Example: I have a 30gr Pedersoli spout which actually throws 30gr of 3f Goex in Cody Wyoming. Bring that spout and powder to western Arizona in the winter time and after about six weeks, that spout now throws 27gr of the same 3f Goex. Humidity can and will make a considerable difference in the weight of your powders.

This is the reason that there is NO hard and fast cross reference for the grain weight of Pyrodex to Black Powder published by the manufacturers. Although the chart that Arcticap posted is more than adequate, somebody took A LOT of time putting that together. Also, different Black Powders weigh differently. Swiss is typically heavier than Goex for example.

Find a load that suits you and the gun for accuracy. Typically this isn't going to be a very heavy load either. While you're playing with it, a cheap adjustable powder measure is really handy. Keep in mind that when you eventually switch over to real Black Powder, you'll get to do this all over again. But of course, that's where the fun is, isn't it?
 
tpelle said:
Well, not exactly. The spout, marked 24 grains, should throw a charge of 24 grains of BLACK POWDER by weight. Whatever VOLUME that is, if you fill the spout with the same VOLUME of Pyrodex P, that is a charge of equivalent power to the same VOLUME of black powder. The WEIGHT of the charge of Pyrodex will be different, however.

I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but what I was setting out to determine is what WEIGHT of Pyrodex is equal in power to a given WEIGHT of black powder. I can weigh the charge of Pyrodex on my scale, and I know the spout on my flask is supposed to be calibrated to a weight of black powder, but I can't weigh the same volume of black powder on my scale to check that the spout is accurate because I don't have any black powder.

But you're right, you always measure Pyrodex or any of the other substitutes, against the equivalent volume of black powder.
Click to expand...
tepelle,
makos-goods explained this very well. All black powder weighs differently. That is why the measure is volume, there is no standard black powder that weighs exactly 1 grain of weight for 1 grain of a volume measure.

I had never realized this before but 1 grain of water volume weighs 1 grain that is where the volume size came from. I use the Lee cc measures and everyone knows that 1 cc of water weighs 1 gram, the old grain measure of grains if filled with water weighs 1 grain of weight. It's exactly the same. I had never read this anywhere until he posted it and also showed how 1 ounce of water in a measuring cup weighs exactly 1 ounce. A pint weighs 1 pound. That was pretty cool.
 
In other words, 1cc H2O = 1 gram = 15.43 grains

That is where the volumetric measure comes from, so I'm told.

1cc holds 15.43 "grains" of BP or substitute, regardless of it's granular size or actual weight.

By the way, you cannot stuff enough powder in a cap-and-ball chamber to do any damage to the gun (brass frames notwithstanding). You can, however, pour too light a load such that the rammer isn't able to seat the projectile down on the powder, leaving airspace which can really cause pressure problems. It seems it should be the other way around, but it's not.
 
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All of this is why I weigh all my charges on a Redding beam scale and put
them in little vitals. I usually carry 100 with me. I don't shoot anymore than
that in a day. Easy and accurate. Keeps your powder dry too.
 
I have a couple of Walker Adjustable Flasks but I don't like using them much. One of them is hanging on the wall now with a little powder in it..I had my carbines and '58's worked on and proofed all to hell and back. I took a couple of my regular flasks and removed the 24 grain spouts from them and then took a couple of more larger spouts and cut them down to hold a TS3fff charge equal to .44-40 with just a little extra to spare. Screwed them in place on the regular flasks. Now when I dump a spout full I'm pretty well on .44-40. I can just look at the spout before I dump and pretty well tell if it's in line with a .44-40 or maybe just a tiny tad hotter..Work's real good for me. I left the little bit of extra room in the spouts just in case I ever want to shoot black powder....
 
tpelle said:
Well, not exactly. The spout, marked 24 grains, should throw a charge of 24 grains of BLACK POWDER by weight. Whatever VOLUME that is, if you fill the spout with the same VOLUME of Pyrodex P, that is a charge of equivalent power to the same VOLUME of black powder. The WEIGHT of the charge of Pyrodex will be different, however.
Click to expand...

NO! You're making a bad assumption when you say the bolded part. ALL black powder measures and handling equipment is measuring volume, not weight. And all black powder and substitutes are intended to be handled by volume. This is all quite clearly laid out in the loading notes about the substitutes.

So your flask spout is putting out 24 gns by VOLUME.

Weight with these products means absolutely zero when it comes to comparing loads Obviously there will be a weight to volume correspondance of some ratio. But since Pyrodex is made to be equal in power to BP by volume the weight ratio isn't really something that needs to be considered. Similarly 777 powder is specified as being equal in power to BP when using 70% of 777 BY VOLUME.

I would also suggest that with all the back and forth conversions and mistaken focus on weight ratios that you're setting yourself up for a potential accident. It's far easier and in the end safer to just use weights for modern smokeless loads and volume for BP and BP substitutes. Especially when the makers of the powders are telling us that this is the proper method.
 
The issue I had with these flasks wasn't the spout, but the valve. Mine leaked a significant amount of powder, and so did its replacement. In other words, regardless of how well your spout is calibrated, if the valve leaks powder, all measurements and calculations go out the window. Invert your flask over a sheet of paper and give it a few taps---see if your valve leaks.

Upon close examination, the valve on my Pedersoli flask was made out of pot metal that was close in color to brass; perhaps it was sintered brass. It wouldn't close tightly, and couldn't be tightened up or otherwise repaired. The fix is to remake a valve shaft and valve out of solid brass.
 
SleazyRider said:
The issue I had with these flasks wasn't the spout, but the valve.
Click to expand...

The Pedersoli reproduction flasks pretty much all do this. The amount that they leak depends on the the individual flask. If the "Paddle" doesn't come all the way across to cover the hole, you can remove the entire top (you will probably want to blue lok-tite the screws when you put them back in) and tweak the paddle on the stem just enough to get it to close.

The amount that they leak should be inconsequential when loading. I've checked weights on several flask/spout combinations, knowing full well that there will be some leakage and found consistancy within 1gr.

As long as you use the same technique on the same flask every time, you should get very consistant results. Also, you might want to store the flask standing upright in your range box.
 
Thanks for all the responses, guys. I didn't think this thread would go on for so long!

Anyway, perhaps my original subject line should have been "CHECKING a Powder Flask", as that was what I was originally intending to do. As I said, I looked at the pictures of presentation 1860 Armies that showed the flasks in the cases with the pistols, and the spouts on the flasks seemed to be only about 1/2 the size of the one on my flask. Did they throw two or more charges into each chamber? Even with the 24 grain spout, it doesn't seem like there's much powder in the chamber - you can barely see it down in there.

I've taken to topping up the chamber pretty much level with cream of wheat, then compressing the ball down on top of it.

I thought that back in the day they just pretty much filled the chamber with powder, leaving just enough room for the ball.
 
Best way to know you don't need to worry about it is to use an adjustable measure and just fill it from the flask. You get the same charge every time, the charge you want, and you don't have to worry about the reliability of the flask.
 
Spouts that are shorter but throw the same amount are also fatter, making them appear even shorter yet.
 
Rain?

I shot quite a bit at my Club's range while it was raining this Winter.
So if the volume changes with humidity does it change when shooting on a rainy day? Given that the shooter and gun are under a cover, would the powder actually pick up moisture in the short time it is exposed to the ambient air while loading?
I doubt the increase in moisture would vary the powder volume very much. From what I have read here, the powdeer charge is just a calculated volume anyhow...
I load from an ajustable powder measure anyhow but found this thread intresting thanks to all, except to one smart aleck!
ZVP
 
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